Auto Hold and ESS

[Rla1022]

I’m sure I’m in the minority here, but i am fond of the ESS. I also like the auto park feature. the wife’s BWM x5, has a neat interpolation of the auto park feature called auto hold. It is on by default and works by utilizing holding the vehicle without the need to press the brake. At a light it effectively turns everything off except climate control (unlike the JL). Anyone know if the JL has the ability through any of the programming to enable such a feature?

R

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[Rahneld]

I’m sure I’m in the minority here, but i am fond of the ESS. I also like the auto park feature. the wife’s BWM x5, has a neat interpolation of the auto park feature called auto hold. It is on by default and works by utilizing holding the vehicle without the need to press the brake. At a light it effectively turns everything off except climate control (unlike the JL). Anyone know if the JL has the ability through any of the programming to enable such a feature?

R

I respect that you like ESS. I tolerate it. You, I, and about "1 other person on the board" can meet in some phone booth (do you know what a phone booth is?) to discuss it.

We are basically asked to have a system, by default, forced on us that will save miniscule amounts of gas per rig, but admittingly amounts to a higher level of savings across the fleet, that seems to not engage on many rigs, and may be subject to braking with miles and age. This system comes from CAFE standards set by the EPA to get automobile manufacturers to improve their overall mileage ratings across the fleet.

ESS, IMHO will go the way of the "pet rock." We're headed towards electric vehicles when economies of scale drive quality up and price down.

This said, that same ESS system uses a small ESS/Aux battery, that at least on the 3.6L, the way FCA designed things, must have charge for the rig to crank (cold or ESS) even though the main battery is mostly tasked with supplying the power for that crank to happen.

I get that you like autopark too. If I had a new driver in the family I too might see it more favorable than you do, but I know I speak for quite a number of us here who see the feature in the same way that we view the "coffee is hot" warning on McDonald's coffee.

I'm to understand that "duh" warning came from the well known case where a women opened the top of her coffee in a moving car, badly burnt her genitals (no joke) and a sympathetic jury awarded her--IMHO--way to much $.

My "stingyness "here BTW shouldn't be equated with lack of caring for the poor lady's situation, but rather, my belief that people need to take responsibility for their own lives and not expect $ for their dumbass moves. (And yes, the case is more complex, I've read it, and part of the award dealt with the coffee not needing to be so hot.)

On the flip side, it's hard for anyone of us to turn away $ that law allows us to have, even for our own screwups--which is why the law needs to change regarding tort liability compensation, particularly factoring in the degree that a litigant brought the damage on themselves. Their stupidity, litigation and awards raises the price of our goods and services.

As was just discussed yesterday, this feature is a proximate cause of celebrity Anton Yelchin's death. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Yelchin#Death Tragic though it was, people don't want challenging-to-disable nanny features on their rigs for other people's stupidity, and still more, there are situations where moving a rig with the door open, like backing a towed boat into water, is indicated. Had this not happened to a celebrity and made the media, I am certain we'd be in a different place right now.

These nanny features are a result of two things, and neither, funny enough, are, at least directly, lawyers' faults. They are ridiculous jury awards and the laws that let them be.

I know of no easy way to simply energize climate control during an ESS event on a JL.

Interestingly enough Randy, it IS climate control, particular A/C that is most likely to get the JL prematurely end an ESS event before you take your foot off the brake at a stop, as this feature draws too much current from the ESS battery for the rig to allow the event to continue--and part--back to my initial point, FCA designed things this way because the ESS battery must have a minimal charge before the rig will even allow the main battery to bear most of the load of cranking the engine.

The only downside to running the other stuff during an ESS event is the risk that an ESS ends prematurely, which wastes gas. Wrangler owners and power hungry mods are highly correlated. They want the option for that gear to remain on, that is if they haven't turned ESS off already.

You've touched upon two very touchy subjects here. I hope others respect your opinions if not also markedly disagree with them.

Cheers and peace.

 

[RV Wrench]

Auto-hold is already alive and well in my JL, at least it is in 4-low.

Going up a hill, if I let off the throttle, the rig applies the brakes and keeps it from rolling backwards.

 

[Rla1022]

I respect that you like ESS. I tolerate it. You, I, and about "1 other person on the board" can meet in some phone booth (do you know what a phone booth is?) to discuss it.

We are basically asked to have a system, by default, forced on us that will save miniscule amounts of gas per rig, but admittingly amounts to a higher level of savings across the fleet, that seems to not engage on many rigs, and may be subject to braking with miles and age. This system comes from CAFE standards set by the EPA to get automobile manufacturers to improve their overall mileage ratings across the fleet.


You've touched upon two very touchy subjects here. I hope others respect your opinions if not also markedly disagree with them.

Cheers and peace.

Thanks well aware of what a phone booth is as well as a Nintendo, a pager and a comodore 64. I wasn't really looking for a debate nor a lecture about nanny states or phone booths. I was just looking to see if anyone knew wether there was the ability to combine features using a device that can flash the computer. I am not asking to disable "the annoying auto park" feature. There is a thread for that. I am just pointing out an interesting feature that I like in the X5, that I would like as an option that can be turned off, like on the x5, if needed. To be fair though the feature is a pain in the A$$ in the car wash.

Link for more details on the x5.
http://www.bavarianmw.com/guide-544.html

The concept

This system assists the driver by automatically setting and releasing the brake, such as when moving in stop-and-go traffic.

The vehicle is automatically held in place when it is stationary.

On inclines, the system prevents the vehicle from rolling backward when driving away.

 

[mwilk012]

The answer is no.

 

[Adventure.AS]

The concept

This system assists the driver by automatically setting and releasing the brake, such as when moving in stop-and-go traffic.

The vehicle is automatically held in place when it is stationary.

On inclines, the system prevents the vehicle from rolling backward when driving away.

Look up "Hill Start Assist" in the manual. The HSA feature is described on page 222 of the 2019 digital manual.

 

[Mojito!]

The ESS does not bother me as much as how they have accomplished it. If it annoys me while driving I turn it off. It seems so ridiculous where they put it and then no warning labels indicating disconnecting main battery does not disconnect power.You still have a hot terminal in your hand. Then the absurd location. I have been studying the schematics to figure why two batteries are necessary. Why not a larger battery, or locate it where you can see and access?

The problem with all these safety features is that we foster complacency.

 

[Sean L]

I'm going to weigh in here, as someone mentioned the Hill Start Assist. I find an ESS restart combined with the Hill Start Assist to be about the choppiest way to get the Jeep moving. I turned hill start assist off and the restarts are much smoother now. That being said, my Jeep is an automatic so Hill Start Assist doesn't make any sense to me in that application either. Maybe in a manual Jeep, but I also feel I'm experienced enough to not need it in that application as well.

 

[Rahneld]

The ESS does not bother me as much as how they have accomplished it. If it annoys me while driving I turn it off. It seems so ridiculous where they put it and then no warning labels indicating disconnecting main battery does not disconnect power.You still have a hot terminal in your hand. Then the absurd location. I have been studying the schematics to figure why two batteries are necessary. Why not a larger battery, or locate it where you can see and access?

The problem with all these safety features is that we foster complacency.

Two batteries weren't necessary, just a design choice.

As you may appreciate, other vehicles do ESS with one battery--even within the FCA fleet I believe I read.

My guess as to why FCA went the dual battery route for the Wrangler is the potential for enormous electric power loads on the rig during ESS events, as compared to other vehicles, given the potential customizations owners often install like light packages, etc. The second battery, as I strongly suspect you appreciate, is there to protect the cranking abilities of the main one, once the ESS event concludes.

There is a simple jumpering technique @Mojito! on the forum (if you would like a link say so) that makes the batteries effectively one unit. From the factory this is pretty much the case for 99% of operation but for cranking and ESS events.

The irony though is that IMHO I wouldn't run ESS with this jumpering in place as it may trick the 3.6L to enter an ESS event that it shouldn't because the ESS battery is too low (but connected to the main battery it is not seen as such by the rig's computer) and/or conversely keep the rig in ESS too long at a stop light. To the latter point that you likely know, ESS will stop before you take your foot off the break if the ESS battery drops to low (so as to insure it has minimal power to allow the crank to occur). But hardwired to the main battery, the 3.6L may see the ESS battery, falsely, as much more charged than it truly is.

It seems the 3.6L computer tests the ESS battery in isolation and won't crank the rig if that battery's too low in power/dead, even though, oddly enough, both batteries are connected for the crank. Premature ending of an ESS event, as described above prevents this, but cold cranks don't. You could try to start your rig in the morning, in pristine condition but for this ESS battery, the 3.6L's IMHO "Achilles' heel" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles'_heel and be as dead as a doornob.

Sigh.

 

[wolfdog]

The ESS does not bother me as much as how they have accomplished it. If it annoys me while driving I turn it off. It seems so ridiculous where they put it and then no warning labels indicating disconnecting main battery does not disconnect power.You still have a hot terminal in your hand. Then the absurd location. I have been studying the schematics to figure why two batteries are necessary. Why not a larger battery, or locate it where you can see and access?

The problem with all these safety features is that we foster complacency.

Our Cherokee Trailhawk has ESS and one large battery and it works smoother and better than our 2018 JLU! Right now however the ESS has failed, battery still up to par and except a light the says ESS needs service that appears once in awhile I have not missed it in 6 months! What it seems I have gained is almost 2 mpg of gas mileage w/o ESS?? That change is not from the winter to summer gas either!

I guess I'm not smart enough to figure out why 2 batteries VS one large battery? Ya the Cherokee's battery is expensive to replace but if your having the work done hourly cost of changing out one of the two batteries alone will be more than the cost of the big HD battery! ???

Go Jeep!!!

 

[Mojito!]

Two batteries weren't necessary, just a design choice.

As you may appreciate, other vehicles do ESS with one battery--even within the FCA fleet I believe I read.

My guess as to why FCA went the dual battery route for the Wrangler is the potential for enormous electric power loads on the rig during ESS events, as compared to other vehicles, given the potential customizations owners often install like light packages, etc. The second battery, as I strongly suspect you appreciate, is there to protect the cranking abilities of the main one, once the ESS event concludes.

There is a simple jumpering technique @Mojito! on the forum (if you would like a link say so) that makes the batteries effectively one unit. From the factory this is pretty much the case for 99% of operation but for cranking and ESS events.

The irony though is that IMHO I wouldn't run ESS with this jumpering in place as it may trick the 3.6L to enter an ESS event that it shouldn't because the ESS battery is too low (but connected to the main battery it is not seen as such by the rig's computer) and/or conversely keep the rig in ESS too long at a stop light. To the latter point that you likely know, ESS will stop before you take your foot off the break if the ESS battery drops to low (so as to insure it has minimal power to allow the crank to occur). But hardwired to the main battery, the 3.6L may see the ESS battery, falsely, as much more charged than it truly is.

It seems the 3.6L computer tests the ESS battery in isolation and won't crank the rig if that battery's too low in power/dead, even though, oddly enough, both batteries are connected for the crank. Premature ending of an ESS event, as described above prevents this, but cold cranks don't. You could try to start your rig in the morning, in pristine condition but for this ESS battery, the 3.6L's IMHO "Achilles' heel" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles'_heel and be as dead as a doornob.

Sigh.

Thanks for the reply! Yes, I would like the link.

This fact finding mission started with my batteries being discharged to the point of needing a 20 minute charge from a battery charger. I have an @Engel refrig/freezer that I leave plugged in and running 24/7. I have done that for several months with no issue. I have been driving it daily up until then. I let it sit for 2 1/2 days plugged in. I was led to believe that the cooler would shut itself off at 12v as a safety feature. I guess I was wrong. Or maybe 12v is not enough to start the 3.6L. I am gathering all the info I can before I start pointing fingers. Is the cooler out of calibration, is it because of the dual battery for the ESS?

Is it possible to go to an aftermarket dual battery system and delete the aux battery?

A jump box did not work.

 

[Thill444]

I have a 3.6L and I am so tempted just to remove the ESS module. I saw a Youtube video and it is very easy to remove and just not deal with the nonsense of ESS. Just one less thing to worry about.

 

[Fusilli Jerry]

I'm going to weigh in here, as someone mentioned the Hill Start Assist. I find an ESS restart combined with the Hill Start Assist to be about the choppiest way to get the Jeep moving. I turned hill start assist off and the restarts are much smoother now. That being said, my Jeep is an automatic so Hill Start Assist doesn't make any sense to me in that application either. Maybe in a manual Jeep, but I also feel I'm experienced enough to not need it in that application as well.

I'm glad i stumbled on this thread today. It took me a few minutes to figure out how to get to the HSA. For others reading it's in the infotainment screen--->apps--->settings--->Assistance something something I think. THANK YOU for bringing this to our attention.

Coming from a Ram 1500, I recognized that there was some sort of hill assist, but didn't think it was a setting. I had NO idea that was the reason for the choppy restarts when the ESS was working. I just tried it, and I noticed a big difference. It drove like normal from a standing start. This is my first ESS vehicle, so I have no basis for comparison. But i don't have a problem with the tech.

Ask me in 5 years haha.

 

[Sean L]

I'm glad i stumbled on this thread today. It took me a few minutes to figure out how to get to the HSA. For others reading it's in the infotainment screen--->apps--->settings--->Assistance something something I think. THANK YOU for bringing this to our attention.

Coming from a Ram 1500, I recognized that there was some sort of hill assist, but didn't think it was a setting. I had NO idea that was the reason for the choppy restarts when the ESS was working. I just tried it, and I noticed a big difference. It drove like normal from a standing start. This is my first ESS vehicle, so I have no basis for comparison. But i don't have a problem with the tech.

Ask me in 5 years haha.

Yep, my thoughts went from:

"Good concept with poor execution"

to

"This works great!"

 

[Rla1022]

Yep, my thoughts went from:

"Good concept with poor execution"

to

"This works great!"

Kind of where I’m at. Will try the hill ascent control and see who that functions.

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