Performance Upgrages-Madness Autoworks

[aai]

Hi aai, I clicked on OP's link, but I'm not seeing an immediate Alfa Romeo reference. If that's something the IT department can address, I can make sure that gets done. As Alfa Romeo is often at the top of the A-Z list for Vehicle Makes, sometimes that can pop up in places as databases populate.



I think that's a task best suited for a vendor account. There's more dyno sheets, but it's all the same information, same numbers, different timestamps. What specific info are you looking for?

Videos: There's probably about 3-4 JL Wrangler videos currently on standby in various stages of edit. Tax season puts all hands on deck into shipping and processing. I'd love to say that there should be more footage on the youtube channel in the coming weeks, but the ebb and flow of business needs and time will dictate that.

Yes it was doing it earlier when it was initially posted, but now its not doing it.
First, just want to be forward Im in the modding camp. As for dyno sheets, Im just doing my research and comparing pulls, yours seems to be right there with Mishimoto baseline pulls. Do you agree that the baseline advertised torque numbers are underrated from the factory?

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[DesertFox]

The removal of the PnP without leaving a trace does bring up an interesting issue of personal integrity. We know that if the dealer/FCA finds out we have a PCM tune on the vehicle, they may deny any engine-related warranty claims. So, we remove the tune/piggyback/etc before we take the vehicle in to the dealer. But strictly speaking, if we do this and expect an engine warranty repair we are committing fraud - a criminal act. Would we be facing litigation/criminal prosecution? Likely not, but we are still trying to “steal” the warranty repair from FCA so it becomes an issue of personal integrity.

Does anyone have a problem with this, or is saving money worth compromising your personal honor?


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[aai]

I firmly believe that if a person is at all worried about retaining the powertrain warranty, that person has no business doing engine tunes period. There is always a chance that you can and will be declined for a repair.

 

[eMac]

The removal of the PnP without leaving a trace does bring up an interesting issue of personal integrity. We know that if the dealer/FCA finds out we have a PCM tune on the vehicle, they may deny any engine-related warranty claims. So, we remove the tune/piggyback/etc before we take the vehicle in to the dealer. But strictly speaking, if we do this and expect an engine warranty repair we are committing fraud - a criminal act. Would we be facing litigation/criminal prosecution? Likely not, but we are still trying to “steal” the warranty repair from FCA so it becomes an issue of personal integrity.

Does anyone have a problem with this, or is saving money worth compromising your personal honor?
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The concern I bring up to most users is the idea that you may have something factory-defective that has nothing to do with a modification. I've witnessed a Fiat/Alfa Romeo dealership decline work on a factory stereo shutting off intermittently - clearly an interior electronics issue - due to the presence of an aftermarket intake. Some dealerships simply will refuse to do any work on a vehicle when there is evidence of any outside work or parts.

While I don't doubt that there are those out there who could modify to a point of extreme stress on critical engine components, abuse the car on a hot day and cause a mechanical failure, revert the mods back to stock, then take it back to the dealership claiming some kind of factory defect in the valvetrain, that's sort of an extreme outlier to the rest of the enthusiast community. I also feel that there's typically evidence that would still lead to that claim being denied regardless, whether that be physical (single-use or 1-way clamps that connect the turbocharger outlet to charge piping, indicating that the turbocharger has been replaced or tampered with) or electronic (flash counters inside the ECU indicating how many times the ECU has been flashed or otherwise updated).

Here's the short version for why this is far less of a concern with the PnP module linked:

1. Engine and ECU will detune itself and/or activate limp mode when it sees parameters it does not like. You see this naturally with stock motors encountering heat soak or bad gas. All vehicle and engine safety and monitoring systems are left intact, as no programming is overwritten or over-ridden. Hence why if you go crawling in Arizona on a 120-degree day with the AC on full blast and the stereo cranked, you may just activate the car's built-in limp mode regardless of whether you have an ECM installed.

2. Output of the PnP box does not push past any sort of danger/power threshold. In fact, it's safe enough that no changes are necessary to the factory maintenance schedule (though it's always a good idea on smaller engines that see higher boost to change oil and plugs a bit sooner than OEM recommends). The development phase of these products typically involves higher benchmarks than what's released to the public, and then a leadfoot like myself or our shop manager subjecting it to abuse, daily, and making adjustments where needed.

3. Engine robustness - we have tested this engine out at much higher outputs than stock, and even what the unit OP linked to is capable of. I don't think you'll cause engine or valvetrain failure at power levels the stock turbo is capable of generating. And if you're throwing a bigger turbo on the vehicle, then you'll need a custom direct ECU remapping to accommodate those changes. And if you're doing that, then you're well past the level of a PnP unit or concern with warranty (as that's right out the window).

Now, once again, every dealership is different. As an example, there's are some Alfa dealers out there that will install PnP-type modules all day long, and keep the warranty intact - so long as they purchase the mod direct and handle install in-house. I don't doubt that there are some Jeep dealers out there who'd be open to it as well. Your mileage may vary.

If you're already feeling your skin crawl just reading about the possible implications of mod work, then it's not going to make much sense to go that route. After all, modding should only be done within the scope of your comfort level. The question about personal integrity is going to be a personal one and ultimately a non-factor for an overwhelming majority of users who install modules like this from reputable vendors - especially a vendor who actually owns their demo vehicles.

 

[eMac]

As for dyno sheets, Im just doing my research and comparing pulls, yours seems to be right there with Mishimoto baseline pulls. Do you agree that the baseline advertised torque numbers are underrated from the factory?

I think that's the case, considering the percentage calculation differential to account for drivetrain loss - it took a 17% multiplier to get from WHP to rated HP, versus only 9% to get from WTQ to rated TQ. At the same multiplier for hp, that brings us to about 316 TQ. It didn't come as a complete surprise considering the Giulia and Stelvio are rated at 306 - though we were definitely surprised to see those results as an output from all 4 wheels. Numbers like that I'd expect on a RWD application.

 

[kurt rustle]

This sounds pretty promising -- watching the thread.

Something I'm wondering is whether the unit is water proof (or resistant). The install video for one of the competing piggyback tuners says to keep it in a high place, away from moisture.

Also, is there a way to control settings or is it basically just always on (when unit is plugged) or off (when using bypass plug)?

 

[eMac]

This sounds pretty promising -- watching the thread.

Something I'm wondering is whether the unit is water proof (or resistant). The install video for one of the competing piggyback tuners says to keep it in a high place, away from moisture.

Also, is there a way to control settings or is it basically just always on (when unit is plugged) or off (when using bypass plug)?

Hey Kurt. Submerging the unit is a bad idea, but it'll be fine with rain or a trip to the carwash. As with most electronics, keeping it away from moisture is ideal.

As far as the module, It'll stay always on unless bypassed. There will be a version that will work in conjunction with a phone app - that should allow some adjustments once it's completed. I have to assume late summer. Any updates for either standard or app-controlled will be done via USB in the future.

In my experience with these modules, the App-controlled versions rarely offer greater output than the Standard (or non-App) versions. The App controls typically allow detuning to some degree, whereas the Standard units are set at (or very near) the Max Power setting of the others. So advantage would be the ability to detune or turn off from in-cabin (versus opening up the hood). I personally have only ever used the detuning features in diagnostics, or in certain circumstances affecting performance (eg: catless downpipe / high flow cat applications; adverse weather conditions; adverse fuel conditions).

Then again, as the Wrangler doesn't have lower power settings on a dial (Alfa Giulia and Stelvio have onboard "Power mode selection"), that could be useful.

Then again again, as most Wrangler mods end up robbing power and torque output to the wheels by way of adding weight or rotating mass, having a power adder would offset that and negate the need for lower power settings anyway?

The listing indicates a 30-day trial period. I'd probably let my experiences in that run dictate whether I personally had a need for those features.

 

[Engmoreau]

@eMac are the numbers provided in the dyno chart using 93 or 91 octane fuel? Recommended is 91, what would be the difference in power(numbers) between the two?

Also, any additional gains with a CAI and exhaust from the readily available aftermarket?

 

[Budagreg]

As far as factory warranties are concerned, any warranty can be voided IF you post on open social media that you have modified a vehicle beyond factory recommendations! They can and do look if there is a catastrophic failure.
Be careful if and where you post!!!

 

[eMac]

@eMac are the numbers provided in the dyno chart using 93 or 91 octane fuel? Recommended is 91, what would be the difference in power(numbers) between the two?

Also, any additional gains with a CAI and exhaust from the readily available aftermarket?

Hi Engmoreau,

Numbers in the dyno chart are were taken on 93 octane, with no other modifications. I'd presume 91 octane will decrease those figures a bit, but not to a substantial degree, as the programming was designed for safe and powerful gains on CA 91 octane in the first place. To quantify that, I would have to guesstimate somewhere between 300-305tq (with 309tq @ 93).

With a good intake and exhaust, I can easily imagine those figures climbing to 320+.

 

[eMac]

As far as factory warranties are concerned, any warranty can be voided IF you post on open social media that you have modified a vehicle beyond factory recommendations! They can and do look if there is a catastrophic failure.
Be careful if and where you post!!!

Hey Greg,

I see you're in Buda. Our shop's about an hour NW of you, about 35 minutes from downtown Austin. DM me for more info, and come check out our JL when you've got a free day.

In regards to your post - I've seen examples of what you're talking about. Stories of Nissan GT-R owners grenading transmissions after documenting full throttle launch reactions on Youtube/Instagram etc, then the dealership doing just a little research and coming to the table with pretty clear cut evidence. It seems that many people who've gotten "busted" in those scenarios are seeing the full fruition of reckless endeavors.

There will always be the odd duck who can fall victim to bad luck, but you're correct - caution with posting is always good foresight.

Thankfully, I don't think the MP Pro box posted is capable of generating conditions that would cause the sort of engine failure to be concerned about. You would trigger some variety of "safe mode" or "limp mode" as generated by the factory powertrain computers. Benefits to the box: you're still allowing the factory ECU to do what it does best, make compensations for conditions.

 

[oceanblue2019]

The removal of the PnP without leaving a trace does bring up an interesting issue of personal integrity. We know that if the dealer/FCA finds out we have a PCM tune on the vehicle, they may deny any engine-related warranty claims. So, we remove the tune/piggyback/etc before we take the vehicle in to the dealer. But strictly speaking, if we do this and expect an engine warranty repair we are committing fraud - a criminal act. Would we be facing litigation/criminal prosecution? Likely not, but we are still trying to “steal” the warranty repair from FCA so it becomes an issue of personal integrity.

Does anyone have a problem with this, or is saving money worth compromising your personal honor?


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You bring up a good point. But if this plays out like it did with Audi we will soon realize that the factory has a built in counter that can track these installs/removals and if you bring it in with the program count incremented you might as well have left the mod in place.

With Audi they track flash programing cycles which means a new tune loaded to the ECU, physical power disconnects so they know the ECU was disconnected, and lastly use-once tamper proof screws on it all to know if it was physically removed.

 

[eMac]

You bring up a good point. But if this plays out like it did with Audi we will soon realize that the factory has a built in counter that can track these installs/removals and if you bring it in with the program count incremented you might as well have left the mod in place.

With Audi they track flash programing cycles which means a new tune loaded to the ECU, physical power disconnects so they know the ECU was disconnected, and lastly use-once tamper proof screws on it all to know if it was physically removed.

To clarify - the MP Pro is not a replacement ECU or a flash. It's an auxiliary "plug-and-play" unit that does not require any tampering with the factory ECU, nor does it read or write to the factory ECU - therefore no activation of a flash counter.

Therefore safety with regard to warranty revolves around ease of install/uninstall - or simply bypassing the unit with an included bypass plug which allows you to remove the tuning module without having to completely uninstall the wire harness for the module.

 

[joshp]

@eMac Do you know how many miles have been accumulated on JL platform alone, roughly? All trouble-free? I just ordered exhaust and intake and am on the fence.

FWIW, every turbo car I've ever owned has been tuned and I've only run into trouble with a nitrous build that was attributed to installation error (window switch was not activated) I'm by no means an authority, but keeping a tune somewhat conservative seems to be key. I realize we're dealing with eTorque now and I'm choosing to ignore that part of the equation.

 

[MyJlU]

Thankfully, I don't think the MP Pro box posted is capable of generating conditions that would cause the sort of engine failure to be concerned about. You would trigger some variety of "safe mode" or "limp mode" as generated by the factory powertrain computers. Benefits to the box: you're still allowing the factory ECU to do what it does best, make compensations for conditions.

This is a Key part to they approach of tuning the 2.0L motor, the add on box will allow the motor to make more power and torque only when the conditions are met to do so. I do know that Piggyback programmers are very popular in overseas and may seem like snake oil to some. I am very interested to see some long term tests of this product. I can only imagine with a good intake ans exhaust that those posted numbers will indeed climb.

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