Flat Tow winch bumper options

[AFfiredawg]

So is it not enough that Mopar says it is OK to tow but and then they say do not use a bumper connected via the frame-plate? Not trying to be an ass however it is disturbing to see folks blatently ignore the safety advice of the OEM manufacture of the vehicle and taking the advice of a small after market parts company... What is wrong with that picture.

When or if an accident happens that small company will be gone and Mopar is going to say we told you so... The insurance company could also potentially decline coverage if the OEM manufactures advice was ignored.

Look towing a 5000lb car can have life changing impacts if not properly done and or safety recommendations ignored...

Where did mopar says this...I haven't seen it anywhere except through hearsay from you...

Again, what safety advice/reccomendations? You have yet to show where they put in writing that the baseplates are ok but the Bumpers aren't...You probably will never get them to tell you it is ok...They will not assume that liability.

Mopar will say that if you are in any kind of accident and it was the fault of any aftermarket part....

Insurance could decline coverage period, if you altered the original vehicle in a way that caused the accident...it doesn't matter if it was an aftermarket bumper or an aftermarket baseplate...We are all taking a chance no matter how we connect...realistically, as long as you follow the guidance in the manual(which doesn't address how the connections are made) and the guidance of the aftermarket part manufacturers (who say whether or not you can tow with their devices) then your insurance will likely cover you. Then they will go after the company who's part failed...if it failed in a manner of use they said was acceptable.

Sponsored

 

[lightsout]

Where did mopar says this...I haven't seen it anywhere except through hearsay from you...

Again, what safety advice/reccomendations? You have yet to show where they put in writing that the baseplates are ok but the Bumpers aren't...You probably will never get them to tell you it is ok...They will not assume that liability.

Mopar will say that if you are in any kind of accident and it was the fault of any aftermarket part....

Insurance could decline coverage period, if you altered the original vehicle in a way that caused the accident...it doesn't matter if it was an aftermarket bumper or an aftermarket baseplate...We are all taking a chance no matter how we connect...realistically, as long as you follow the guidance in the manual(which doesn't address how the connections are made) and the guidance of the aftermarket part manufacturers (who say whether or not you can tow with their devices) then your insurance will likely cover you. Then they will go after the company who's part failed...if it failed in a manner of use they said was acceptable.

Look there are industry standards that dictate what is likely safe and acceptable. Those standards would likely be established by the OEM vehicle manufacture, and the Tow equipment manufactures (like Blue OX, Roadmaster, Brute and others) who also likely liability coverage in the event of equipment failure when towiing, and not some small time manufacture near Kalamazoo going against Mopar. Considering that MOST bumper manufactures DO NOT make towable bumpers also sends a message.

When I talked to Mopar they explicitly told me not to bumper tow and recommended I use an approved frame connected two plate from the Tow bar manufactures. I would also prefer to bumper tow however it wold be terribly negligent of me to do so knowing what Mopars position with bumper towing is.

Not going into a lot of detail but I previously owned several Boat dealerships for 12 years and have seen the results of too many towing accidents. With that said this is where my passion for this subject comes from.

As someone who also occupies the same roads you may be on all I can ask is please be responsible while towing.

 

[AFfiredawg]

and how many years has the bumper industry (that does support it) been doing it safely? Who are you to say they aren't properly engineered? who are you to say blue ox or others baseplates are? You have still yet to show any documentary proof of what is or isn't recommended by a qualified individual at mopar...

One other thing, Roadmaster specifically sell attachments to connect their tow bars to bumpers...isn't that in a way them say it's ok?

You have yet to provide any proof to back up what you are saying...baseplates are not any better of an option than a properly engineered, approved(by the bumper manufacturer) and installed bumper like the rock hard or LOD.

You are simply stating your opinion as fact when it is not.

Finally, You never answered...Do you inspect your entire setup as directed by the manufacturer? If not yours is more dangerous than mine! Where do your safety cables connect? to the same baseplate as the tow bar? again more dangerous than mine....

 

[Frostbit]

I'm still waiting for "lightsout" or anyone else to give me a real life example of the bumper flat tow failure. Every time I ask I get crickets.

 

[Ron_H]

I'm still waiting for "lightsout" or anyone else to give me a real life example of the bumper flattop failure. Every time I ask I get crickets.

Sorry, Lighstout won't be posting any failure examples but he'll be along soon to regurgitate his personal perception again and again and again, etc.

 

[lightsout]

Sorry, Lighstout won't be posting any failure examples but he'll be along soon to regurgitate his personal perception again and again and again, etc.

Seeing how the JL is barely 1 year old statistics are still young, however just keep drinking the koolaide of the small time bumper manufactures while ignoring the engineers advice at Mopar. what a ship of fools... I would guarantee you that is the insurance companies of the few bumper manufactures learned that Mopar says not to tow via the bumper they would be dropped like hot potatoes.

HERE IS A FACT: MOPAR STATES THE WRANGLER FRAMES ARE NOT ENGINEERED TO TOW FROM THE BUMPER/FRAME.

here is one of the leading towing supply companies (Etrailer.com) that also confirm this (they to have confirmed this with Mopar)

https://www.etrailer.com/question-66903.html


Look do not take my word for it contact Mopar yourself. Then again who needs Mopars advice when there are so many experts on the forum...

 

[AFfiredawg]

Seeing how the JL is barely 1 year old statistics are still young, however just keep drinking the koolaide of the small time bumper manufactures while ignoring the engineers advice at Mopar. what a ship of fools... I would guarantee you that is the insurance companies of the few bumper manufactures learned that Mopar says not to tow via the bumper they would be dropped like hot potatoes.

HERE IS A FACT: MOPAR STATES THE WRANGLER FRAMES ARE NOT ENGINEERED TO TOW FROM THE BUMPER/FRAME.

here is one of the leading towing supply companies (Etrailer.com) that also confirm this (they to have confirmed this with Mopar)

https://www.etrailer.com/question-66903.html


Look do not take my word for it contact Mopar yourself. Then again who needs Mopars advice when there are so many experts on the forum...

Seeing as that part of the design from the JK to the JL hasn't changed using statistics from the JK is statistically reasonable...

Insurance will drop you for anything they can....whether it was engineered that way or not you still modified a vehicle from the factory and if they want to drop you they can use that as the excuse...The fact that it was a bumper instead of a base plate isn't gonna change the fact that you modified or affected the factory features

I am using my vehicle for recreational towing as described/authorized in the user manual(If Jeep didn't want you to tow from aftermarket bumpers and were concerned about liability they would have put it there)...I am using a bumper who's manufacturer says is good for recreational towing...So I am operating within the limits that both items manufacturers set or publicly state is acceptable for their product...

Again you stated that mopar said that as a fact but have still not proven it...etrailer also sells the adapter for roadmaster towbars to connect to bumpers...So they go both ways...Etrailer is a retailer/supplier, not a manufacturer so not . the engineers...

You are the one that keeps saying that "mopar says..." and have yet to show that anywhere...You post in big bold letters "HERE IS A FACT" but you have no proof to show it is a fact. Please educate yourself on what makes some a fact versus an opinion. You say you operated a business and if so then you know what someone tells you on the phone means absolutely nothing legally...And what is in writing means absolutely everything...I have in writing mine is perfectly fine. So again this is you portraying your own personal opinion as an unsubstantiated fact.

IF you ever are able to prove your position feel free to come on back here and provide some meaningful conversation.

You keep avoiding many questions i pose to you though, which is telling in it's own way...

So I ask one more....Why are you the only person that is stuck on this?

EDIT: One other note, That link you referenced to specifically says "Jeep does not recommend towing the Wrangler with the OEM bumper because it was not designed to pull the weight of the vehicle. " Notice it says OEM Bumper....Not aftermarket bumper....

Etrailer as a company wants you to buy their stuff so of course they are gonna recommend a list of items they sell rather than a new bumper. They of course would not recommend towing from a bumper because they don't manufacturer it....Notice how all their recommendations start something like "we spoke to the manufacturer of that item..."

Also Since you like Etrailer so much what do you have to say about this?

https://www.etrailer.com/Base-Plates/Roadmaster/RM-035-1.html

Plenty of Q&A from them there that says it's how to do it...They even have an instructional video!

 

[Jondrew]

While I admire @lightsout ‘s passion on this subject, his logic and facts are falling short. First off, he has yet to provide any facts other than “Mopar told me”. But we’ve been round and round on that one.

So let me go one further, Blue Ox, who I would not call a small time operation, sells the adapters for aftermarket bumpers themselves.

https://www.blueoxtowbars.com/produ...MIyfTP6-nm4AIVhIvICh1qegBkEAQYASABEgIgbfD_BwE

Additionally, eTralier also sells these Blue Ox adapters

https://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Blue-Ox/BX88307.html

Now of course, the responsibility rests with the owner to ensure the aftermarket bumper manufactuer says their bumpers are rated to flat tow. Smittybuilt, Rockhard and LOD (as well as others) claim thier bumpers are rated for flat tow.

So its not at all ridiculous for people to trust these alternate solutions are up to the job. Myself, I’ve chosen the Maximus 3 system, which appears to attach to the frame the same way the Blue Ox baseplate does. It does not have the crossmember connecting the two tow points or additional safety cables. So from that standpoint, perhaps the Blue Ox baseplate may be safer. But that does not make the other systems more dangerous.

 

[lightsout]

Seeing as that part of the design from the JK to the JL hasn't changed using statistics from the JK is statistically reasonable...

Insurance will drop you for anything they can....whether it was engineered that way or not you still modified a vehicle from the factory and if they want to drop you they can use that as the excuse...The fact that it was a bumper instead of a base plate isn't gonna change the fact that you modified or affected the factory features

I am using my vehicle for recreational towing as described/authorized in the user manual(If Jeep didn't want you to tow from aftermarket bumpers and were concerned about liability they would have put it there)...I am using a bumper who's manufacturer says is good for recreational towing...So I am operating within the limits that both items manufacturers set or publicly state is acceptable for their product...

Again you stated that mopar said that as a fact but have still not proven it...etrailer also sells the adapter for roadmaster towbars to connect to bumpers...So they go both ways...Etrailer is a retailer/supplier, not a manufacturer so not . the engineers...

You are the one that keeps saying that "mopar says..." and have yet to show that anywhere...You post in big bold letters "HERE IS A FACT" but you have no proof to show it is a fact. Please educate yourself on what makes some a fact versus an opinion. You say you operated a business and if so then you know what someone tells you on the phone means absolutely nothing legally...And what is in writing means absolutely everything...I have in writing mine is perfectly fine. So again this is you portraying your own personal opinion as an unsubstantiated fact.

IF you ever are able to prove your position feel free to come on back here and provide some meaningful conversation.

You keep avoiding many questions i pose to you though, which is telling in it's own way...

So I ask one more....Why are you the only person that is stuck on this?

Considering that about 15% of my "Likes" are for my post on this subject as well as several IM's supporting my position, I am not alone. So you just keep on bucking the system, what does Mopar know anyway trght? When AFfiredawg has all the answers. Do your own home work for which you have done NONE except fall in line with a bumper manufacture sales pitch that wants you to buy their bumper.

You cannot see the forest for the trees, this position has NOTHING to do with the bumper or any adapter, it is that Mopar does not condone towing from the frame bumper mount. It is the potential failure of the Mopar equipment not the bumper or the adapter.

As Much as you do not like my Position actually I so badly wanted to tow via my bumper and after calling and talking to many bumper manufactures direct I learned of Mopars position and then I called them directly at that time Sept 2018 there were only two mainstream bumper manufactures LOD and RH that even made a towable bumpers. Additionally other entities warned me including Quadratec, 4WP and Northridge when I called them when looking for towable bumpers. My statements regarding this are not exclusive to me. There was simply a very common thread when inquiring. To my own disgrace I also fought it and I ordered the LOD bumper, it was not until I spoke to Mopar after ordering the LOD bumper when I 1st hand learned of Mopars position and I canceled the order just before LOD shipped.

I ended up installing the Blue OX tow plate as much as I did not want a tow plate it was the right thing to do, however today I could not be happier now and the tow plate is safer as well compared to the LOD or RH bumpers I lost NO clearance.

Look I am just sayin verify with Mopar for yourself, that is the only one that counts...

 

[Frostbit]

here is one of the leading towing supply companies (Etrailer.com) that also confirm this (they to have confirmed this with Mopar)

https://www.etrailer.com/question-66903.html

That Q&A you posted is for a 2000 TJ.

How do you feel about this Q&A from a source you apparently value .... Etrailer

https://www.etrailer.com/question-40179.html

"There are aftermarket front bumpers for your 2012 Jeep Wrangler that include D-rings on them that can be attached to the Roadmaster Blackhawk 2 tow bar # RM-422 using adapters. We carry adatpers that fit the Blackhawk and attach to D-rings that are 3/4 inches thick, part # RM-035, or 1 inch thick, part # RM-035-1. Just use the adapter that fits the D-rings on whatever bumper you get. You also want to make sure the bumper is rated to be towed from because not all of them are."

 

[Jondrew]

Considering that about 15% of my "Likes" are for my post on this subject as well as several IM's supporting my position, I am not alone. So you just keep on bucking the system, what does Mopar know anyway trght? ...

I dont think physics cares less how many likes you get. This isnt a popularity contest. By the way, what does Blue Ox know about towing, right? I mean they are selling adapters for aftermarket bumpers (see my previous post).

Its reasonable to draw different conclusions from all the available data. You seem fixated on everyone following in line with your interpretation.

 

[AFfiredawg]

Considering that about 15% of my "Likes" are for my post on this subject as well as several IM's supporting my position, I am not alone. So you just keep on bucking the system, what does Mopar know anyway trght? When AFfiredawg has all the answers. Do your own home work for which you have done NONE except fall in line with a bumper manufacture sales pitch that wants you to buy their bumper.

You cannot see the forest for the trees, this position has NOTHING to do with the bumper or any adapter, it is that Mopar does not condone towing from the frame bumper mount. It is the potential failure of the Mopar equipment not the bumper or the adapter.

As Much as you do not like my Position actually I so badly wanted to tow via my bumper and after calling and talking to many bumper manufactures direct I learned of Mopars position and then I called them directly at that time Sept 2018 there were only two mainstream bumper manufactures LOD and RH that even made a towable bumpers. Additionally other entities warned me including Quadratec, 4WP and Northridge when I called them when looking for towable bumpers. My statements regarding this are not exclusive to me. There was simply a very common thread when inquiring. To my own disgrace I also fought it and I ordered the LOD bumper, it was not until I spoke to Mopar after ordering the LOD bumper when I 1st hand learned of Mopars position and I canceled the order just before LOD shipped.

I ended up installing the Blue OX tow plate as much as I did not want a tow plate it was the right thing to do, however today I could not be happier now and the tow plate is safer as well compared to the LOD or RH bumpers I lost NO clearance.

Look I am just sayin verify with Mopar for yourself, that is the only one that counts...

AND YOU STILL AVOID THE QUESTIONS!!!
AND YOU STILL HAVE PROVIDED NO PROOF!!!

And mopar isn't the only one that matters....If an aftermarket supplier says their product is good for something and then it fails at that you go after the aftermarket supplier, not Mopar....

 

[AFfiredawg]

I dont think physics cares less how many likes you get. This isnt a popularity contest. By the way, what does Blue Ox know about towing, right? I mean they are selling adapters for aftermarket bumpers (see my previous post).

Its reasonable to draw different conclusions from all the available data. You seem fixated on everyone following in line with your interpretation.

He is from Seattle....So.......

 

[lightsout]

While I admire @lightsout ‘s passion on this subject, his logic and facts are falling short. First off, he has yet to provide any facts other than “Mopar told me”. But we’ve been round and round on that one.

So let me go one further, Blue Ox, who I would not call a small time operation, sells the adapters for aftermarket bumpers themselves.

https://www.blueoxtowbars.com/produ...MIyfTP6-nm4AIVhIvICh1qegBkEAQYASABEgIgbfD_BwE

Additionally, eTralier also sells these Blue Ox adapters

https://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Blue-Ox/BX88307.html

Now of course, the responsibility rests with the owner to ensure the aftermarket bumper manufactuer says their bumpers are rated to flat tow. Smittybuilt, Rockhard and LOD (as well as others) claim thier bumpers are rated for flat tow.

So its not at all ridiculous for people to trust these alternate solutions are up to the job. Myself, I’ve chosen the Maximus 3 system, which appears to attach to the frame the same way the Blue Ox baseplate does. It does not have the crossmember connecting the two tow points or additional safety cables. So from that standpoint, perhaps the Blue Ox baseplate may be safer. But that does not make the other systems more dangerous.

Again the issue is not the bumper or the adapter it lies solely on the Wrangler frame. I am not saying that LOD or RH or Smitty makes a bad bumper or adapter, in fact quite the opposite. Just that the connection to the Jeep frame is Mopars concern. Just go crawl under your Wrangler and you twill see the a sheet metal bumper plate that has a small tack weld on the top and bottom and a bracket that extends back to the frame held by a small bolts into the frame. You do not need to be a mertallurgist to see that this is not a robust connection...

Here is a picture of the Bumper frame connection to the frame, again other than two tack welds top and bottom this thin sheet metal plate is only attached by two small bolts, one on each side however those are only via a slotted bolt hole. There was no way I would have towed with this connection once I actually saw it...

Here is the Tow plate connection again. See that small bolt forward that is the Frame plate bolt in the above pictrure

 

[AFfiredawg]

Again the issue is not the bumper or the adapter it lies solely on the Wrangler frame. I am not saying that LOD or RH or Smitty makes a bad bumper or adapter, in fact quite the opposite. Just that the connection to the Jeep frame is Mopars concern. Just go crawl under your Wrangler and you twill see the a sheet metal bumper plate that has a small tack weld on the top and bottom and a bracket that extends back to the frame held by a small bolts into the frame. You do not need to be a mertallurgist to see that this is not a robust connection...

Here is a picture of the Bumper frame connection to the frame, again other than two tack welds top and bottom this thin sheet metal plate is only attached by two small bolts, one on each side however those are only via a slotted bolt hole. There was no way I would have towed with this connection once I actually saw it...

Here is the Tow plate connection again. See that small bolt forward that is the Frame plate bolt in the above pictrure

So yours has three bolts(two aftermarket) on each frame rail compared to my bumper which has 6 holding it in place....I haven't argued that they connect differently...Only that one is no better than the other....At least not that you have proven...The front plate that the bumper is connected to may be welded(and they are not tack welds, but if you were a welder you would know that...) but it also has the brackets on both sides of the frame rail supporting it back that way as well. Slotted or not where is the force? The force is pulling so the open slot being forward won't affect it's stability/strength....

Oh and where does your safety chain attach? not to your frame....only the base plate...what happens when those aftermarket cheaply made bolts break? Your safety chains aren't gonna do you any good then....My will though cause my chains are connected separately to the frame...

Finally you still haven't proven that mopar has a concern....still waiting for proof of their concern

Sponsored