ESS poll~ love it, hate it, leave it?

[RubiSc0tt]

I have a manual trans, and only disable it when it's brutally cold because I noticed the heat suffers a bit. My only real concern is long term reliability/viability. Other than that, I just let the Jeep do it's thing. it's great in the Car Wash, at the bank, or other drive through scenarios.

Coming from an '04 TJ, it is a bit off putting at first. My wife does not have it on her '15 Rav4 and it scared her the first time she rode in the Jeep. She asked if I stalled out. Also: we were running errands right after I got the Jeep this past winter and she and my son were in the Jeep. I had to run into Home Depot real quick for something. I hadn't found the shut off switch yet. My son was napping and the ESS kept shutting down and starting up and it was waking him up. since then, if he's sleeping, I usually push the button if I want it to stay running with them in the vehicle.

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[blnewt]

Found a couple good uses for it, drive thru where somebody orders enough food for a football team, and very long traffic signals. Encountered both on our drive home from Vegas where we picked up our JL. So I may change my tune on it a bit, but definitely hit the A button most of the time

Have to refresh this reply I made back in January not long after we got our new JL.

I totally hate ESS, I push the bypass button every time, and if I happen to forget my wife quickly pushes it for me if she's riding along. Completely worthless feature that just complicates everything to save a couple gallons of gas per year And w/ my 2dr puny 17 gallon gas tank they could have used all that R&D money to find a way to squeeze a 21 gallon in there.

ESS SUCKS BALLS!

 

[xeon]

I was an initial hater of the ESS. Then fuel prices started going over $4.00 per gallon and well...now that we are near $5.00 per gallon here in So Cal....I look at ESS completely differently.

I have owned my JLUR for more than a year. The first few weeks the ESS was the most frustrating thing ever. After a few months, you figure out how to use it to your advantage. Now after a year, I can easily engage and disengage it by how I drive and most importantly how I stop ( with or without AC). I have gotten so used to it I take full advantage of it. It saves gas no doubt. Long lines of stop and go...whether thats drive thrus, bumper to bumper traffic etc....it all adds up.

The wear and tear aspect..... there may be something to this. I won't know for a long time. With 35,000 miles and counting...no issues yet. The only part that I can think of that would get the additional wear is the starter. The engine has less wear since its off. So if I have a choice of a few extra hundred engine hours added to the life of engine vs a starter...i am going to lean to saving the engine.

One thing I am considering is an electric oil pump to keep the system pressurized while in that off state. I run one in another vehicle of mine and its kept down the wear considerably.

 

[blnewt]

I was an initial hater of the ESS. Then fuel prices started going over $4.00 per gallon and well...now that we are near $5.00 per gallon here in So Cal....I look at ESS completely differently.

I have owned my JLUR for more than a year. The first few weeks the ESS was the most frustrating thing ever. After a few months, you figure out how to use it to your advantage. Now after a year, I can easily engage and disengage it by how I drive and most importantly how I stop ( with or without AC). I have gotten so used to it I take full advantage of it. It saves gas no doubt. Long lines of stop and go...whether thats drive thrus, bumper to bumper traffic etc....it all adds up.

The wear and tear aspect..... there may be something to this. I won't know for a long time. With 35,000 miles and counting...no issues yet. The only part that I can think of that would get the additional wear is the starter. The engine has less wear since its off. So if I have a choice of a few extra hundred engine hours added to the life of engine vs a starter...i am going to lean to saving the engine.

One thing I am considering is an electric oil pump to keep the system pressurized while in that off state. I run one in another vehicle of mine and its kept down the wear considerably.

Good reply, if I lived back in Cali I may have a different opinion of the ESS, especially since you're getting seriously hosed at the tank

And good last point, as far as less wear on the motor since it's off, I would say there may be more wear since oil pressure has to build back up, but if you added that electric pump that would negate that.

I'm just glad our gas is $2.40/gal and having to worry about saving a bit here & there isn't adding up much. So I'll keep hating on the ESS setup

 

[Sean L]

So I'll keep hating on the ESS setup

 

[jeepoch]

Totally love it.

Use it everywhere. On previous vehicles I'd always shift into neutral at stop lights. This almost became like muscle memory for me. Sort of like pushing in the clutch and taking the trans out of gear. ESS is just a better natural extension of this shifting into neutral habit, only better. In fact, not having the ESS kick in at stop lights is almost now foreign. It's a gizmo that I enjoy toying with like the nerd that I am.

Since ESS not only consumes less fuel, but no fuel (zero, ziltch, nada) while stopped, it gives me a decision point at every upcoming stop opportunity. The rule of thumb is that ESS uses about the same amount of fuel to restart as idling for about 7 seconds. This decision provides me a whole different dimension in driving in trying to estimate whether to let it kick in or not. Guessing whether the light is going to turn green by better observing the traffic patterns moving in all directions yields better situational awareness, which is never a bad thing (ever).

I also routinely get over 25 mpg in blended city / highway driving with the 3.6L 8spd auto 2 door Sport S. (Pics included below to bolster my claims.) The best benefit by far though is seeing a little more than a 400 mile range per tank.

I totally understand those who could give a rat's rear toot for their gas mileage. You don't buy the best all around sport utility vehicle ever produced in order to get the best possible fuel efficiency. Otherwise, you'd be just like every other sissy environmentalist and drive a Prius. For those that trully don't care about conserving gas and lowering emissions, that's your right and privilege. Sleep well at night knowing that you could be helping the greenies but really don't give a crap.

From my perspective, the technology is not only easily usable but it is indeed way cool. Turning over and starting an Internal Combustion Engine within a revolution or two of the crankshaft involves some pretty impressive science and engineering. For those who just simply press the start button, hit the gas pedal, steer and point in some particular direction without any regard to all the incredible physics involved in converting the potential energy of the petroleum (or diesel) fuel into kinetic motion, well continue to travel along your ignorant but happy Jeep journey. Blissfully unaware of all the hardware and software development design effort that went into implementing such pretty amazing magic.

I for one appreciate all this hard work, with the full understanding that (even if it was federally mandated) is nonetheless implemented with the overall goal to provide, not only for my benefit but that of the entire planet (including you), with a much better place to live whether you're a sissy environmentalist or not. Lower overall fuel consumption saves not only on the nitrous and carbon footprint but additionally helps me fund my Jeep modification budget, as meager as that may be. However, that yearly savings accumulated globally worldwide would likely be way more than yours and my salaries combined many hundreds, if not thousands, of times over.

So yes, I appreciate and enjoy knowing I'm helping all you other happy-go-lucky lead-foots in some small (but not so insignificant) way. If only doing my part in helping you breath easier, even in all this CV insanity.

So ESS gets two thumbs up by me and my fingers never get near the off button.

For those that remain so ignorant of just how cool Electronic Stop Start really is, keep pressing that off button and thumb you're nose at all the monetary and atmospheric benefits that you're simply pissing away.

Jay
Former Chrysler Powertrain Software Engineer (and all around geek in general).

Full disclosure: I had left the automotive industry many years ago for other software development pursuits and had no direct contribution to ESS in any way whatsoever. I still however admire both the vision and implementation of this feature set.

To my former colleagues, job well done.

 

[jakebrake]

I give my ess 2 middle fingers waaaaay up. annoying, useless feature. when My much better half finally gets tired of it, I will be putting in a bypass switch.

would love to find the douche nozzle responsible for this, and, d.e.f., and rip their balls off, so they do not contaminate the rest of the world.

 

[sdynak]

I give my ess 2 middle fingers waaaaay up. annoying, useless feature. when My much better half finally gets tired of it, I will be putting in a bypass switch.

would love to find the douche nozzle responsible for this, and, d.e.f., and rip their balls off, so they do not contaminate the rest of the world.

The smartstopstart bypass is excellent... since I installed it about 1.5yrs ago it has remained flawless and only this thread is a grim reminder of this insane "feature" that has been implemented.

In full disclosure, I sleep well knowing my bypass works 100% of the time

 

[Rolling Ragu]

I can't remember my source, but early on, I researched the idea that ESS was going to somehow wear out components (such as the starter). I also can't remember details, but I do remember that my mind was put to rest. The system is much smarter than I gave it credit for. It isn't the equivalent of turning off the engine and restarting. Something about the computer stopping where a piston was at top dead center and requiring very little to restart...basically a spark and some fuel and nothing from the starter? Like I said, can't remember the details. I'm sure some of you do.

 

[jeepoch]

I give my ess 2 middle fingers waaaaay up. annoying, useless feature. when My much better half finally gets tired of it, I will be putting in a bypass switch.

would love to find the douche nozzle responsible for this, and, d.e.f., and rip their balls off, so they do not contaminate the rest of the world.

Jakebrake,

Don't hold back, lets us know what you really think. It's funny how this ESS feature is so controversial. You either love it, hate it or just simply tolerate it.

I did sort of enjoy your opinion of this because I hold the opposite perspective. Refer to my post #51 just before yours. Not just your passion at wanting to rip this feature the hell out of your rig but to grab the responsible person's gonads in the process, wow.

Please don't blame me, I had absolutely nothing to do with it. But I do have an insider's perspective.

When I worked as an Engine Controller Software team lead for Chrysler (from 1995 through 2001), nearly every single powertrain developer was a 'gear-head', me included. We wanted to produce products that were as 'pure' as possible to the fun factors that make cars cool. Sexy sleek body designs, strong powerful engines, and durable high quality powertrain components. Left to our own, you would certainly never have found a car with ESS.

Unfortunately, the politicians, lawyers and bean counters rule (in that order)...

Truthfully, it is the higher 'Corporate Average Fuel Economy' (CAFE) standards that are most responsible for all this type of extra "contamination" as you put it. It is the extreme pressure put on the car companies to raise their average CAFE numbers (and of course the ever more restrictive emissions standards as well), that are the overwhelming reason behind ESS and other like features that 'piss you the hell off'.

While ESS was not yet even a pipe dream in the 2002 through 2008 model years I was involved with, most of our feature set responsibilities were to find compromise between acceptable performance and reduced warranty claims. I know corporate management would cringe at my honesty, but most of our development effort (over 50%) was to manage torque and power output to not break any powertrain components, while still giving the customer the impression that the car was still 'bad-ass' yet comprehensively refined. At no time, would the actual hardware and software engineers deliberately want to stray from the 'pure' cool car concept. But engineering is the art (science) of compromise. Making things work with what you're allowed to play with.

I'll bet you a wrinkled, worn dollar bill that it was the Obama administration, or the ever over-reaching environmentalist policies of the EPA and other bureaucracies that have mandated (rather contaminated), your vision of what your Jeep should be.

Good luck at grabbing the goverment's balls. I'd recommend you vote for the people who would rather relax both the CAFE standards and emissions legislative rules and mandates.

Why do think you have a 'disable' button at all? I'll bet the developers made a compromise with the legislators and lawyers. I'll even wager that they tried to make it an 'enable' button so that it would only work if you wanted it. Politicians, while appearing stupid, do find a way to force their agendas. That's why corporate can now claim they're meeting the stricter rules and regulations, but this forces you to disable and/or defeat it.

I'm really not trying to be political. Really I'm not. Just trying to highlight the balls of the douche you're trying to squeeze. Have fun with that.
Vote your true conscience. Squeeze the balls of any environmentalist. It may be the closest to what you're after.

Please leave mine intact.
Jay

 

[jakebrake]

Jakebrake,

Don't hold back, lets us know what you really think. It's funny how this ESS feature is so controversial. You either love it, hate it or just simply tolerate it.

I did sort of enjoy your opinion of this because I hold the opposite perspective. Refer to my post #51 just before yours. Not just your passion at wanting to rip this feature the hell out of your rig but to grab the responsible person's gonads in the process, wow.

Please don't blame me, I had absolutely nothing to do with it. But I do have an insider's perspective.

When I worked as an Engine Controller Software team lead for Chrysler (from 1995 through 2001), nearly every single powertrain developer was a 'gear-head', me included. We wanted to produce products that were as 'pure' as possible to the fun factors that make cars cool. Sexy sleek body designs, strong powerful engines, and durable high quality powertrain components. Left to our own, you would certainly never have found a car with ESS.

Unfortunately, the politicians, lawyers and bean counters rule (in that order)...

Truthfully, it is the higher 'Corporate Average Fuel Economy' (CAFE) standards that are most responsible for all this type of extra "contamination" as you put it. It is the extreme pressure put on the car companies to raise their average CAFE numbers (and of course the ever more restrictive emissions standards as well), that are the overwhelming reason behind ESS and other like features that 'piss you the hell off'.

While ESS was not yet even a pipe dream in the 2002 through 2008 model years I was involved with, most of our feature set responsibilities were to find compromise between acceptable performance and reduced warranty claims. I know corporate management would cringe at my honesty, but most of our development effort (over 50%) was to manage torque and power output to not break any powertrain components, while still giving the customer the impression that the car was still 'bad-ass' yet comprehensively refined. At no time, would the actual hardware and software engineers deliberately want to stray from the 'pure' cool car concept. But engineering is the art (science) of compromise. Making things work with what you're allowed to play with.

I'll bet you a wrinkled, worn dollar bill that it was the Obama administration, or the ever over-reaching environmentalist policies of the EPA and other bureaucracies that have mandated (rather contaminated), your vision of what your Jeep should be.

Good luck at grabbing the goverment's balls. I'd recommend you vote for the people who would rather relax both the CAFE standards and emissions legislative rules and mandates.

Why do think you have a 'disable' button at all? I'll bet the developers made a compromise with the legislators and lawyers. I'll even wager that they tried to make it an 'enable' button so that it would only work if you wanted it. Politicians, while appearing stupid, do find a way to force their agendas. That's why corporate can now claim they're meeting the stricter rules and regulations, but this forces you to disable and/or defeat it.

I'm really not trying to be political. Really I'm not. Just trying to highlight the balls of the douche you're trying to squeeze. Have fun with that.
Vote your true conscience. Squeeze the balls of any environmentalist. It may be the closest to what you're after.

Please leave mine intact.
Jay

No blame You direction in any way...You already stated that You had nothing to do with this nadir. bmw has been doing this for a few Years as well, as has ford. of course the environmentalist are To blame at the base of this....much like the d.e.f. debacle that has plagued us truck drivers for a few Years now. they never seem to get that they do more harm than good.

I have a particularly snarky side, and, I should have warned everyone about it.

I will leave my usual statement regarding those responsible for these creations go...i'm pretty sure that would get me thrown into banned camp.

 

[Spdu4ia]

I hate mine and have always hated it . I discovered if you disconnect the right hood sensor (just unplug it) it automatically disables the ESS upon startup everytime, no button to press , just get in and go .

it will display a light on dash telling you it’s off but small price to pay. Disclaimer: I am not responsible for any other “side effects” of unplugging this sensor as I don’t know what else it affects. It’s worked on my grand Cherokee for years so figured I would try on my JL and boom! Instant gratification

 

[jeepoch]

No blame You direction in any way...You already stated that You had nothing to do with this nadir. bmw has been doing this for a few Years as well, as has ford. of course the environmentalist are To blame at the base of this....much like the d.e.f. debacle that has plagued us truck drivers for a few Years now. they never seem to get that they do more harm than good.

I have a particularly snarky side, and, I should have warned everyone about it.

I will leave my usual statement regarding those responsible for these creations go...i'm pretty sure that would get me thrown into banned camp.

Jakebrake,

No worries. I took no offense. Thanks a bunch for what you do. Hauling freight (or whatever it is you haul) is no easy task. I do appreciate it.

But yes, if it were left to me I would have done everything to design the ESS feature with an enable button. But with the way it is it could be much worse, the feds could have not compromised and forced its implementation without any way to either disable or defeat it. Unfortunately, I'll even predict that the time will come where this may sadly become true. Bureaucracies tend to only get bigger and more controlling over time, independent of which ever party has the majority.

We're in this together.
Jay

 

[jeepoch]

I hate mine and have always hated it . I discovered if you disconnect the right hood sensor (just unplug it) it automatically disables the ESS upon startup everytime, no button to press , just get in and go .

it will display a light on dash telling you it’s off but small price to pay. Disclaimer: I am not responsible for any other “side effects” of unplugging this sensor as I don’t know what else it affects. It’s worked on my grand Cherokee for years so figured I would try on my JL and boom! Instant gratification

Travis,

Sorry I need to step away from this thread, but before I do here are some insight for your potential ESS defeat 'side-effects':

1. The automotive manufacturers certainly don't advertise this fact but all modern vehicles implement something called 'Tell-Tale' within their Powertrain Control Modules (PCMs). This essentially is the equivalent to an airplane's 'black-box'. It stores information about all facet's of the vehicles operating state.

2. Originally it was only used as a mechanism for corporate to determine whether dealerships were overcharging for warranty claims. If the Tell-Tale information did not match what the dealership claimed was necessary, corporate would refuse payment for the entire work. This one feature alone stopped in its tracks all 'dive-bombing' troubleshooting techniques. That's where a technician would replace every possible likely component for the percieved trouble rather than actually troubleshooting to the actual cause of the issue. Corporate saved 100's of millions of dollars (or more) from fraudulant dealership claims.

3. More to your point, one of the recent uses for Tell-Tale is that lawyers for insurance companies, including corporate warranty entities, can gather this information, generally through court subpoenas, in the case of accidents or normal corporate inquiry.

This has you potentially liable for driving your vehicle around with your hood not being properly latched. Any warranty or insurance claim will almost likely fail in court. I'm no lawyer, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that this should (would) place you at a severe disadvantage in any situation.

I personally would not want to give any lawyer or corporate representative any ammunition (whatsoever) to either void my warranty or assign unnecessary blame for any fault in the course of discovery after an accident.

I'd rather push the silly little button on the dash.

For what it's worth.
Jay

 

[TPadden]

A lot of interesting discussion here, I control my ESS completely with my brake pedal. Only engage it when I know I'll be sitting for a while (almost never). Don't even think about it anymore, try easing the brake as you come to a stop no button or hood switch disconnect required...I also no longer spill any beer when braking.

Tom

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