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Proof The Wrangler Diesel Could Have Had A Manual

SecondTJ

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Ok I will say one more thing, that I already said, in hopes someone reads it:

THE CHIEF ENGINEER OF THE DIESEL PROJECT SAYS CLEARLY IN PLAIN ENGLISH THAT THERE IS NO TECHNICAL REASON WHY THERE IS NO DIESEL WITH A MANUAL OR IN A 2-DOOR.
I think your taking the response out of context. After the host says “automatic only and 4-door only” the Jeep rep seems to only respond to the “4-door only comment” about how low the take rate is on 2-door Jeeps without mentioning anything in regards to the transmission.
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mrhumble1

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I think your taking the response out of context. After the host says “automatic only and 4-door only” the Jeep rep seems to only respond to the “4-door only comment” about how low the take rate is on 2-door Jeeps without mentioning anything in regards to the transmission.
Very possible!

Regardless, I mostly posted this thread to respond to all those who have said (in other threads talking about the diesel) something to the effect of:

- the diesel won't fit in a 2-door
- a manual\clutch would be impossible to use with a diesel because of *insert reason here*
- the exhaust pipes for the diesel would not fit in a 2-door
- any number of other supposed technical reasons why FCA isn't offering the diesel in a manual or 2-door

This video statement from the chief engineer disproves all that. He knows they could engineer anything they want, so the diesel IS doable if they wanted to offer it. He does also say something like "Who knows what the future will bring..." so I guess that's a silver lining.
 

digitalbliss

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THIS GUY GETS IT. I also believe that adding a beefier clutch disk and pressure plate could possibly (POSSIBLY!!) be all that's needed to handle the increased torque. This is what is done on other vehicles that get chipped and suddenly have significantly more HP\torque than stock and need an aftermarket clutch upgrade.
The problem with this is that would require Jeep to make another variation of a transmission that they dont anticipate will sell very much. Obviously, the cost, logistics, and motivation to provide this just does not make business sense to them.
 
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mrhumble1

mrhumble1

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The problem with this is that would require Jeep to make another variation of a transmission that they dont anticipate will sell very much. Obviously, the cost, logistics, and motivation to provide this just does not make business sense to them.
Sure, but that cost could be bundled into the package. Automatic transmissions cost $2,000 more as it is, so it's not like up-charging is a foreign concept. As I have said before, I am not the only person who would pay more to get the configuration I want. Maybe most people don't think of ordering vehicles with the exact options they want but I did and it came out perfectly.
 

jdubya421

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Sure, but that cost could be bundled into the package. Automatic transmissions cost $2,000 more as it is, so it's not like up-charging is a foreign concept. As I have said before, I am not the only person who would pay more to get the configuration I want. Maybe most people don't think of ordering vehicles with the exact options they want but I did and it came out perfectly.
No, you aren't the only one, but I don't think you have a solid grasp of the fact that the total group is still small. Sure, you have talked to a bunch of people with manuals, but the total number is tiny. 1% of the market buying something for a $2000 up-charge doesn't justify the millions in R&D and millions in tooling/assembly line cost.
 

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jayteal

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No, you aren't the only one, but I don't think you have a solid grasp of the fact that the total group is still small. Sure, you have talked to a bunch of people with manuals, but the total number is tiny. 1% of the market buying something for a $2000 up-charge doesn't justify the millions in R&D and millions in tooling/assembly line cost.
I'll pay for all extra millions it would cost to give us 1%'ers the manual we all deserve, just put it on my tab. I honestly think FCA underestimates how many people would buy an M/T diesel....might even be close to 2% of all sales! Do it FCA!
 

ThirtyOne

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Very possible!

Regardless, I mostly posted this thread to respond to all those who have said (in other threads talking about the diesel) something to the effect of:

- the diesel won't fit in a 2-door
- a manual\clutch would be impossible to use with a diesel because of *insert reason here*
- the exhaust pipes for the diesel would not fit in a 2-door
- any number of other supposed technical reasons why FCA isn't offering the diesel in a manual or 2-door

This video statement from the chief engineer disproves all that. He knows they could engineer anything they want, so the diesel IS doable if they wanted to offer it. He does also say something like "Who knows what the future will bring..." so I guess that's a silver lining.
I used to run into this when I managed software developers. Users would ask them if something was possible. Of course they would say yes! Are they going to say they can't do something? They are professionals and know their shit.

But I would always tell them - we can send monkeys to the moon, too. But we don't do it. The question isn't whether it is possible, the question is whether it is feasible.
 

Melny67

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I have seen some posts here claiming random (and nonsense) reasons why FCA is not offering the diesel on the 2-doors or with a manual. This video shows the chief engineer behind the diesel project saying "There's no technical reason" why these things are not available. It's 100% a market-driven decision, so please stop defending the absence of these things as being "required" for some technical reason.

I did like that he also said "Who knows what could happen down the road..." If I ever decide to get another Jeep years from now it will be another 2-door manual, but hopefully with that diesel in it.
It's probably just to hold it back and have all the fan heads jump at the auto first. Then when sales level off introduce it and bump the sale numbers up.
 

SCJeeps

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Let me provide some further insight into why a manual transmission cannot handle the torque, it is limited by the bearings in the speed gears. It is typically a real estate issue where you can't design in enough bearing capacity to handle the torque requirements. In order to make a manual gearbox that can handle that level of torque it becomes quite large and heavy.

Also take note that even in the automatic transmissions the programming is often torque limiting in specific gears to prevent over stress on specific bearings, gears, etc. Take for instance the 1st gear in the 8HP70 which is around ~4.7. This means the output torque of the transmission is now 442 lbft X 4.7 = ~>2000 lbft. This requires strong components. You would have to go look at each specific planetary set (4 in this transmission) and look at torque ratios as it travels through the transmission gears but you get the picture.

I am a bearing design/application & test engineer that has worked for years with OE mfgs(Ford, GM, FCA) for years. It does not surprise me that they don't offer a manual transmission. Go look at one of the last 3/4 and 1 ton trucks (Dodge) that offered a manual gearbox. If I recall correctly the manual truck with the diesel was de-rated almost 200 lbft.
 

TJ2018

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This video statement from the chief engineer disproves all that. He knows they could engineer anything they want, so the diesel IS doable if they wanted to offer it. He does also say something like "Who knows what the future will bring..." so I guess that's a silver lining.
Technically speaking there are limitless possibilities for whatever one can imagine. Throw enough money and expertise to a goal the potential is limitless. HOWEVER, technically possible does not automatically equate to practically possible.

And let me help with translating that last line. Manufacturer: "Who knows what the future will bring..." Actual real world meaning: "This doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of actually happening."
 

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No, it wasn’t possible. The Wrangler’s D478 has max torque rating of 272 lb-ft.

They’d need to find a small, compact trans that could hold the torque. Which is no small feat.

The TR6060 could handle the torque, but would it fit? Also it’s tall first gear (2.98) doesn’t suite a Jeep.

Not to mention nobody offers a diesel and manual transmission anymore. The market is dead.

GM dropped in 2006
Ford dropped in 2011
Ram dropped in 2018
G238 is one that fits and can handle the torque. It what the conversion companies throw behind the supercharged hemi wranglers and what Jeep uses in the hemi concept vehicles.

Also, the d478 in the JL is offered with different torque input ratings. Jeep could easily ask them for the higher rates version with no issues at all direct swap.

I still fully and totally believe it's Jeep's way of obsoleting the 2 door and manual by refusing to offer it in the most desirable configuration. Use the lesser sales of lower trimmed models with these options as further excuse the abandon them all together.

Also the Ram diesel manual was derated because again ram refused to update the clutch and dual mass flywheel. Once those two items are replaced the g56 is ready for around 1200ftlb last I read. Why fix a weak link when you can claim no one wants it because you are artificially limiting the offering? Better to claim no one wants it and drop it than actually fix a $1500 limitation that shouldn't have existed from the factory in the first place.
 
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mrhumble1

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G238 is one that fits and can handle the torque. It what the conversion companies throw behind the supercharged hemi wranglers and what Jeep uses in the hemi concept vehicles.

Also, the d478 in the JL is offered with different torque input ratings. Jeep could easily ask them for the higher rates version with no issues at all direct swap.

I still fully and totally believe it's Jeep's way of obsoleting the 2 door and manual by refusing to offer it in the most desirable configuration. Use the lesser sales of lower trimmed models with these options as further excuse the abandon them all together.

Also the Ram diesel manual was derated because again ram refused to update the clutch and dual mass flywheel. Once those two items are replaced the g56 is ready for around 1200ftlb last I read. Why fix a weak link when you can claim no one wants it because you are artificially limiting the offering? Better to claim no one wants it and drop it than actually fix a $1500 limitation that shouldn't have existed from the factory in the first place.
This is excellent info.
 

SecondTJ

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G238 is one that fits and can handle the torque. It what the conversion companies throw behind the supercharged hemi wranglers and what Jeep uses in the hemi concept vehicles.

Also, the d478 in the JL is offered with different torque input ratings. Jeep could easily ask them for the higher rates version with no issues at all direct swap.

I still fully and totally believe it's Jeep's way of obsoleting the 2 door and manual by refusing to offer it in the most desirable configuration. Use the lesser sales of lower trimmed models with these options as further excuse the abandon them all together.

Also the Ram diesel manual was derated because again ram refused to update the clutch and dual mass flywheel. Once those two items are replaced the g56 is ready for around 1200ftlb last I read. Why fix a weak link when you can claim no one wants it because you are artificially limiting the offering? Better to claim no one wants it and drop it than actually fix a $1500 limitation that shouldn't have existed from the factory in the first place.
Gretag rated the G238 at 570 nm (383 lb/ft).

The aftermarket can also drop in a 5.7 Hemi, but they don’t have the same issues that OEM’s need to deal with.

Where on Aisin’s site does it show optional torque capacities for AL6/D478 ?
 

ThirtyOne

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G238 is one that fits and can handle the torque. It what the conversion companies throw behind the supercharged hemi wranglers and what Jeep uses in the hemi concept vehicles.

Also, the d478 in the JL is offered with different torque input ratings. Jeep could easily ask them for the higher rates version with no issues at all direct swap.

I still fully and totally believe it's Jeep's way of obsoleting the 2 door and manual by refusing to offer it in the most desirable configuration. Use the lesser sales of lower trimmed models with these options as further excuse the abandon them all together.

Also the Ram diesel manual was derated because again ram refused to update the clutch and dual mass flywheel. Once those two items are replaced the g56 is ready for around 1200ftlb last I read. Why fix a weak link when you can claim no one wants it because you are artificially limiting the offering? Better to claim no one wants it and drop it than actually fix a $1500 limitation that shouldn't have existed from the factory in the first place.
80% of sales are automatic. over 80% are 4-door. Diesel sales will be less than 5%. Jeep already offers manual 2-door Rubicons, and no one (relatively speaking) buys them. Just because a manual 2-door diesel SUV that can't tow is your dream vehicle doesn't mean there is enough market to justify serving it.
 

Jeepdude101

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I was amazed when I went to Germany how many manual transmission diesels there were I guess Americans have gotten lazy with driving so the MT market has gone down I for one love manual transmissions and I live in busy stop and go DFW traffic the problem is America’s tree huggers have passed laws that make doing anything industrial really expensive so FCA’s profit will not be very good with the 1% to 2% Jeep owners that want a manual diesel after they do all the development so start enjoying that 3.6 6 speed lol:LOL:
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