Flat Tow winch bumper options

[AFfiredawg]

And what about your factory tow hooks....I bet you put more force on those if you were to ever use them then you do when flat towing from a bumper....They are connected at the same points as bumper....

Sponsored

 

[lightsout]

So yours has three bolts(two aftermarket) on each frame rail compared to my bumper which has 6 holding it in place....I haven't argued that they connect differently...Only that one is no better than the other....At least not that you have proven...The front plate that the bumper is connected to may be welded(and they are not tack welds, but if you were a welder you would know that...) but it also has the brackets on both sides of the frame rail supporting it back that way as well. Slotted or not where is the force? The force is pulling so the open slot being forward won't affect it's stability/strength....

Oh and where does your safety chain attach? not to your frame....only the base plate...what happens when those aftermarket cheaply made bolts break? Your safety chains aren't gonna do you any good then....My will though cause my chains are connected separately to the frame...

Finally you still haven't proven that mopar has a concern....still waiting for proof of their concern

Seriously that is your response. The force is pulling from the bottom only. Consider that triangular frame/bumper plate bracket, whereas the RH and the LOD bumper tow connection is ONLY to the two lower bumper bolts, with that said where is the pressure when all the pulling/pushing is from the bottom of the triangular plate that only has a slotted pivit bolt in the back middle of the bracket. Are those small 1" welds going to hold up with the constant upward pressure from towing (push and Pull) only from the two lower connections. Also those small bracket bolts are not that robust.

Look there is no 100% fail proof answer however between at least these two options there is a night and day clarity in terms of safety and reliability.

Folks here can make up their own minds I am just sharing what I have learned and demonstrate the differences.

 

[AFfiredawg]

Seriously that is your response. The force is pulling from the bottom only. Consider that triangular frame/bumper plate bracket, whereas the RH and the LOD bumper tow connection is ONLY to the two lower bumper bolts, with that said where is the pressure when all the pulling/pushing is from the bottom of the triangular plate that only has a slotted pivit bolt in the back middle of the bracket. Are those small 1" welds going to hold up with the constant upward pressure from towing (push and Pull) only from the two lower connections. Also those small bracket bolts are not that robust.

Look there is no 100% fail proof answer however between at least these two options there is a night and day clarity in terms of safety and reliability.

Folks here can make up their own minds I am just sharing what I have learned and demonstrate the differences.

Your first paragraph doesn't make any sense but I'll take a swing....

First off RH is the only one like that(Which i don't personally like theirs, but no facts against it)...LOD and the others use the welded on D-ring mounts. Which generally pull on the bumper face...which then transfers the pulling energy to the bumper mounts....which pulls fairly straight on the bumper horns...Did you look at the grade or shear strength of those bolts? I bet it's a lot higher than you think...

I would not say there are night and day differences...I would say there are ups and downs of both. Yes folks can make up their minds on their own. But you should not be spewing your opinion as fact and trying to sway their decisions by doing so. I have read more stories of base plates failing than I have bumpers, So????

And what about those factory tow hooks, They connect to the same point as a bumper...Is it not safe to use those? You probably would put a lot more force on those when used than you would flat towing....And they are no where close to being centered on the frame horn.....

 

[Frostbit]

Oh the internet is a wondrous source of information. I've asked, in light of lightout's concerns, for any examples of a tow bumper connection failure for the Wrangler. I've yet to see anyone with DIRECT knowledge of a failure to speak up. That said, there is this information out there.

Blue Ox base plate failures

https://community.fmca.com/topic/8426-blue-ox-failure-of-a-base-plate/

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f85/blue-ox-base-plate-failure-73725.html

https://forum.rvusa.com/threads/failure-of-blue-ox-base-plate.13835/

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=117374.0

I didn't search for Roadmaster baseplate failures.

 

[lightsout]

Frankly I am more concerned being on the road with others towing past their weight limitations and the Jeep wranglers really push or exceed that limit, especially Rubicons with any number of mods. We just sold our 2014 Class A Bounder in December and bought a new one in Jan. We looked at every single brand to find a gas M/H capable of towing our wrangler weighing in at 4900LB (full fuel). We bought a new Fleetwood Bounder 35K (36') on a 22K F53 chassis 22.5 wheels, we will have to travel mostly dry in order to stay at or under gross GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) which is 26K. as this is only 4000lbs over GVRW (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating). (while the 5000lb is also related to the hitch rating they both go hand in hand)

One thing we found shopping for our new M/H was several lower end brands marketed their M/H at 8000lbs towing, that was just a marketing game, there were on the either the same F53 frame or less, so how could that be? The reality was you would never be able to actually tow 8000lbs and be under the GCWR.

This is the very reason we did not buy a Rubicon as the Rubicon with a few popular mods would be well over 5,000lbs. In fact A Rubicon with say 37's, Steel Bumpers, Winch is way over 5K lbs (full fuel), add skids, air and other mods even more problematic. with a Gas Motorhome.

Our 36' Class A with personal gear full fuel 1/4 water, empty Grey and Black tanks was at 19,600lbs which gives me a 5400lbs to work with and be towing within limits.


With that said I wonder what the official weight limits are from the bumper manufactures, Tow plates and Bars have official limits I wold assume bumpers do also

 

[AFfiredawg]

While I agree weight is a whole other issue....Lets keep this thread on topic....Wanna talk towing weights, start another thread....

As for your last line...yes tow bars have weight ratings, Blue Ox nor Roadmaster list weight ratings for their base plates.....So again prove it....

 

[AFfiredawg]

Oh the internet is a wondrous source of information. I've asked, in light of lightout's concerns, for any examples of a tow bumper connection failure for the Wrangler. I've yet to see anyone with DIRECT knowledge of a failure to speak up. That said, there is this information out there.

Blue Ox base plate failures

https://community.fmca.com/topic/8426-blue-ox-failure-of-a-base-plate/

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f85/blue-ox-base-plate-failure-73725.html

https://forum.rvusa.com/threads/failure-of-blue-ox-base-plate.13835/

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=117374.0

I didn't search for Roadmaster baseplate failures.

But don't worry it's safe guys!!!

 

[lightsout]

Oh the internet is a wondrous source of information. I've asked, in light of lightout's concerns, for any examples of a tow bumper connection failure for the Wrangler. I've yet to see anyone with DIRECT knowledge of a failure to speak up. That said, there is this information out there.

Blue Ox base plate failures

https://community.fmca.com/topic/8426-blue-ox-failure-of-a-base-plate/

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f85/blue-ox-base-plate-failure-73725.html

https://forum.rvusa.com/threads/failure-of-blue-ox-base-plate.13835/

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=117374.0

I didn't search for Roadmaster baseplate failures.

Wonder how many tow plates are being used compared to bumper connections? There is no 100% fail proof method, considering that Blue OX and Roadmaster both have past failures and considering their experience in the tow industry I would also assume their products are built to the highest standards since over all their equipment has towed likely billions of miles.

Look I am only putting it our there for those deciding to do their homework, contact Mopar, remove your own bumper and look for your self. Some are willing to take more risk than others. I have said countless times CALL MOPAR...

Seeing how Mopar engineered the Wrangler they should have the final and definitive say otherwise use at your own risk.

 

[lightsout]

As for your last line...yes tow bars have weight ratings, Blue Ox nor Roadmaster list weight ratings for their base plates.....So again prove it....

you correct Base plates seem to not not generally have a published weight as they are all designed vehicle specific which likely takes weight into consideration already, whereas tow bars are hitches are universal.

 

[AFfiredawg]

Then please tell me who or what number you called at mopar and actually spoke to an engineer and not just some call center rep who reads from a script??? The reality is you will never get a mopar rep to say definitively that one option is safer than another....I bet if i call and said "hey can I add a steel bracket to the frame and tow from it? is that ok" They won't tell me that's ok, because then they are taking responsibility/liability for something they have no control over in terms of engineering and manufacturing. They definitely aren't gonna put it in writing.

Only the person who manufacturers an aftermarket part can and would certify or say something is good for a particular use because they have control over those things, they are trying to sell their product for that use so why wouldn't they take on that liability through an educated decision based on sound engineering designs? You know a true engineer risks their license when they sign off on a design...So why would an engineer sign off on a design for a specific use if the "math" didn't add up to a safe product? I would be willing to bet all these bumper manufacturers have engineers either review their work or on staff to do so unless they are an overnight pop up shop....Most of these ones we are discussing are not though.

If you have a failure from or due to an aftermarket part Mopar will say you were wrong period...it doesn't matter if it was a baseplate or a bumper...

Why would I call mopar to discuss aftermarket parts? I wouldn't, I would call the part manufacturer to discuss the safety and capability. Mopar is not and has never been the "definitive say" on aftermarket parts. That would be a very bad business on their part as they would then be putting them selves in the crosshair should something happen and they said yes...Your Logic just doesn't make sense....

 

[lightsout]

Then please tell me who or what number you called at mopar and actually spoke to an engineer and not just some call center rep who reads from a script??? The reality is you will never get a mopar rep to say definitively that one option is safer than another....I bet if i call and said "hey can I add a steel bracket to the frame and tow from it? is that ok" They won't tell me that's ok, because then they are taking responsibility/liability for something they have no control over in terms of engineering and manufacturing. They definitely aren't gonna put it in writing.

Only the person who manufacturers an aftermarket part can and would certify or say something is good for a particular use because they have control over those things, they are trying to sell their product for that use so why wouldn't they take on that liability through an educated decision based on sound engineering designs? You know a true engineer risks their license when they sign off on a design...So why would an engineer sign off on a design for a specific use if the "math" didn't add up to a safe product? I would be willing to bet all these bumper manufacturers have engineers either review their work or on staff to do so unless they are an overnight pop up shop....Most of these ones we are discussing are not though.

If you have a failure from or due to an aftermarket part Mopar will say you were wrong period...it doesn't matter if it was a baseplate or a bumper...

Why would I call mopar to discuss aftermarket parts? I wouldn't, I would call the part manufacturer to discuss the safety and capability. Mopar is not and has never been the "definitive say" on aftermarket parts. That would be a very bad business on their part as they would then be putting them selves in the crosshair should something happen and they said yes...Your Logic just doesn't make sense....

It has been 6 months (Sept) since I discussed this with Mopar like I saved the phone# for you (the contact was provided to me by the service dept of my local dealer who also did not recommend it). I spoke to customer service that took 2 days to returned my call after they discussed with engineering... Again the statement was the frame and bumper connection is not designed for towing, there were no discussion of any specific aftermarket parts what was discussed was towing from the that connection.

Our Sahara was purchased just for towing, 95% of the miles aside from destination on and off driving will be towing, after owning for just 7 months we still have only 700 miles on it. It will be extensively towed which is why I researched so intently the best towing methods.

While bumper towing is likely low risk for issues we simply prefer the safest options and prefer to not go against the manufactures recommendations.

I will leave it at that and encourage others planning to flat tow to investigate for them selves and not just take someones word for it on a internet forum...

 

[AFfiredawg]

So what you are saying is you have no proof to back up your opinion that you previously conveyed as facts. Got it! I would counter that it is built with structural stability in some manner or another as that is exactly where they mounted the factory hooks on the front bumpers. Having said that...You will never get a yes that's ok from Jeep/Mopar in regards to how you tow the jeep, as I said before. Hence the reason as to why i would never call them in the first place...They are never going to say yes that's ok or safe.

The definitive answer should always be from the manufacturer/design owner of the part as they are the designers and manufacturer and have a legal responsibility to provide you with a safe product...It's called tort law, look it up if you aren't familiar...Only reason I know about it is from another personal experience.

The part designer/manufacturer (Big or small)is the one that engineered how it is mounted and signed off on how they would sell it to be used...Not Mopar...

 

[AFfiredawg]

It has been 6 months (Sept) since I discussed this with Mopar like I saved the phone# for you (the contact was provided to me by the service dept of my local dealer who also did not recommend it). I spoke to customer service that took 2 days to returned my call after they discussed with engineering... Again the statement was the frame and bumper connection is not designed for towing, there were no discussion of any specific aftermarket parts what was discussed was towing from the that connection.

Our Sahara was purchased just for towing, 95% of the miles aside from destination on and off driving will be towing, after owning for just 7 months we still have only 700 miles on it. It will be extensively towed which is why I researched so intently the best towing methods.

While bumper towing is likely low risk for issues we simply prefer the safest options and prefer to not go against the manufactures recommendations.

I will leave it at that and encourage others planning to flat tow to investigate for them selves and not just take someones word for it on a internet forum...

Also based on your text above they said "the frame and bumper connection is not designed for towing...." Meaning OEM which lines up with etrailer's answer....they did not say aftermarket wasn't....they also didn't say that towing from the frame was OK either...

 

[AFfiredawg]

Final point....You never spoke with the engineer...Meaning you played the telephone message game...And what do we all know about that game? The message always changes....so realistically did the right question actually get asked to the engineer and did his precise answer make it back un changed? very unlikely.

 

[Frostbit]

Wonder how many tow plates are being used compared to bumper connections? There is no 100% fail proof method, considering that Blue OX and Roadmaster both have past failures and considering their experience in the tow industry I would also assume their products are built to the highest standards since over all their equipment has towed likely billions of miles.

Point well taken as bolded above. Now that being said, I posted examples of failures with the systems that folks at Mopar supported according to you. So I will again ask.......

Anyone out there, including lightsout, have an example of a towing failure with LOD or Rockhard bumpers?

The answer will be crickets.......

Sponsored