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Mishimoto's 2.0L Turbo JL Wrangler - First Ever Dyno Runs vs 3.6L Pentastar

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x3L

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Surprised the BSG has less torque than the non-BSG 3.6 up to 2150 when it’s supposed to hold around 130 lbs at a cold stop.
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Mishimoto

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Where you running premium gas in both or just the 2.0? Any planned runs with regular and premium gas? Thanks.
I believe the 3.6L was likely on 87/89 gas, but it was on loan to us so I would have to ask the owner to be sure. We didn't see any evidence of knock with the 3.6L or the 2.0L. So, I would image the difference in power and torque between any level of octane on the stock 3.6L tune to be less than 10 HP/10 TQ.

Yes I bet the heavier wheels and tires on the Rubicon plus the 4:10 gears versus the lighter weight wheels and tires and 3:45 gears on the unlimited will make a bit of a difference on the Dyno. Too bad you didn’t have the same Jeep just with different engines to get a better accuracy of these figures. Hopefully one day you will get another one in the shop to dyno that matches one of these Jeeps only with the different engine so we can see exactly what differences there may be!
I didn't realize that the gearing was that much different between the two. I think you might get a little better wheel-torque out of the 3.6L with the smaller tires, but that's too much math for me before coffee. :whew:

someone needs to do a larger rotated ball bearing turbo, bigger intercooler, 3 inch turbo back exhaust and e85, custom tune, easy 400hp
We can probably help with at least one of those :D

Surprised the BSG has less torque than the non-BSG 3.6 up to 2150 when it’s supposed to hold around 130 lbs at a cold stop.
These runs start just after the mild hybrid system shut off (which should be about 1,500 RPM). Since we run the vehicle at that RPM for a few seconds before rolling into the run, the electric assist is likely completely off, so you're seeing only what the engine is producing.

Thanks for sharing these, Steve! :like:

I must confess I have zero experience with this kind of charts and tests. If I understand correctly, the 2.0L compares quite favorably, but if someone could elaborate, I’d love to learn more (and have more bragging rights for my Turbo!).
No problem! We actually have a couple really detailed articles on our blog about horsepower, torque and dynos. You can check those out here (or read my novella below :D )

https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/10/mighty-horse-horsepower/

https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/07/equipment-profile-mishimoto-is-dyno-mite/

What you (and most people who daily-drive or off-road with their Jeeps) will likely be most concerned with is the torque graph. Torque is what propels the vehicle forward and is the result of the rotational force of the engine, transmission components, and wheels.

Horsepower is actually a product of the amount of torque applied over a period of time - the formula for which is: (RPM x torque) / 5,250 = HP. That's why you always see torque and horsepower lines on a dyno graph cross at 5,250 RPM.

When looking at a torque graph, there are two major components that you want to note: peak torque and the torque under the curve. Peak torque is exactly what is sounds like, it's the most torque the engine and drivetrain can produce. What's important about peak torque is where on the RPM range it occurs, which leads me to torque under the curve.

20v36_Torque.JPG

For most daily driven vehicles, you want peak torque to occur relatively early in the RPM range and be held near that point for as long as possible. Looking at the 2.0L torque curve, you can see that the peak torque of 264 lb. ft. occurs somewhere around 3,250 RPM, but you're close to that number by about 2,700 RPM and the curve stays above 200 lb. ft. until the redline at 5,750 RPM. With the mild hybrid system active, you would see about 130+ lb ft. of torque from 0-1,500 RPM as x3L posted.

Comparing the 2.0L graph to the 3.6L graph, you can see that the 3.6L makes more torque between 1,500 RPM and 2,150 RPM, and stays flat through a longer RPM range. But, the peak torque is significantly lower than the 2.0L and even at redline, the 2.0L is making more torque than the peak 3.6L torque.

So, what does that mean for you and your 2.0L? Most people, whether they're driving around town or off-roading, will spend most of their time between 1,000 RPM and 3,500-4,500 RPM. Unless you're in the wrong gear, or drag racing all the time, you will likely never see the 5,700 RPM where the 2.0L torque falls below the 3.6L torque. While the 3.6L might get to peak torque a little faster and stay there longer, the 2.0L has much more usable torque than the 3.6L, and with the addition of the mild-hybrid system, that time to peak torque will make even less of a difference.

:whew: I hope all of that makes sense and doesn't add to your confusion! Feel free to let me know if you have any other questions!

-Steve
 

viper88

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I believe the 3.6L was likely on 87/89 gas, but it was on loan to us so I would have to ask the owner to be sure. We didn't see any evidence of knock with the 3.6L or the 2.0L. So, I would image the difference in power and torque between any level of octane on the stock 3.6L tune to be less than 10 HP/10 TQ.



I didn't realize that the gearing was that much different between the two. I think you might get a little better wheel-torque out of the 3.6L with the smaller tires, but that's too much math for me before coffee. :whew:



We can probably help with at least one of those :D



These runs start just after the mild hybrid system shut off (which should be about 1,500 RPM). Since we run the vehicle at that RPM for a few seconds before rolling into the run, the electric assist is likely completely off, so you're seeing only what the engine is producing.



No problem! We actually have a couple really detailed articles on our blog about horsepower, torque and dynos. You can check those out here (or read my novella below :D )

https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/10/mighty-horse-horsepower/

https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/07/equipment-profile-mishimoto-is-dyno-mite/

What you (and most people who daily-drive or off-road with their Jeeps) will likely be most concerned with is the torque graph. Torque is what propels the vehicle forward and is the result of the rotational force of the engine, transmission components, and wheels.

Horsepower is actually a product of the amount of torque applied over a period of time - the formula for which is: (RPM x torque) / 5,250 = HP. That's why you always see torque and horsepower lines on a dyno graph cross at 5,250 RPM.

When looking at a torque graph, there are two major components that you want to note: peak torque and the torque under the curve. Peak torque is exactly what is sounds like, it's the most torque the engine and drivetrain can produce. What's important about peak torque is where on the RPM range it occurs, which leads me to torque under the curve.

20v36_Torque.JPG

For most daily driven vehicles, you want peak torque to occur relatively early in the RPM range and be held near that point for as long as possible. Looking at the 2.0L torque curve, you can see that the peak torque of 264 lb. ft. occurs somewhere around 3,250 RPM, but you're close to that number by about 2,700 RPM and the curve stays above 200 lb. ft. until the redline at 5,750 RPM. With the mild hybrid system active, you would see about 130+ lb ft. of torque from 0-1,500 RPM as x3L posted.

Comparing the 2.0L graph to the 3.6L graph, you can see that the 3.6L makes more torque between 1,500 RPM and 2,150 RPM, and stays flat through a longer RPM range. But, the peak torque is significantly lower than the 2.0L and even at redline, the 2.0L is making more torque than the peak 3.6L torque.

So, what does that mean for you and your 2.0L? Most people, whether they're driving around town or off-roading, will spend most of their time between 1,000 RPM and 3,500-4,500 RPM. Unless you're in the wrong gear, or drag racing all the time, you will likely never see the 5,700 RPM where the 2.0L torque falls below the 3.6L torque. While the 3.6L might get to peak torque a little faster and stay there longer, the 2.0L has much more usable torque than the 3.6L, and with the addition of the mild-hybrid system, that time to peak torque will make even less of a difference.

:whew: I hope all of that makes sense and doesn't add to your confusion! Feel free to let me know if you have any other questions!

-Steve
Appreciate the reply and feedback! Thanks.
 

CatskillsAlex

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I believe the 3.6L was likely on 87/89 gas, but it was on loan to us so I would have to ask the owner to be sure. We didn't see any evidence of knock with the 3.6L or the 2.0L. So, I would image the difference in power and torque between any level of octane on the stock 3.6L tune to be less than 10 HP/10 TQ.



I didn't realize that the gearing was that much different between the two. I think you might get a little better wheel-torque out of the 3.6L with the smaller tires, but that's too much math for me before coffee. :whew:



We can probably help with at least one of those :D



These runs start just after the mild hybrid system shut off (which should be about 1,500 RPM). Since we run the vehicle at that RPM for a few seconds before rolling into the run, the electric assist is likely completely off, so you're seeing only what the engine is producing.



No problem! We actually have a couple really detailed articles on our blog about horsepower, torque and dynos. You can check those out here (or read my novella below :D )

https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/10/mighty-horse-horsepower/

https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/07/equipment-profile-mishimoto-is-dyno-mite/

What you (and most people who daily-drive or off-road with their Jeeps) will likely be most concerned with is the torque graph. Torque is what propels the vehicle forward and is the result of the rotational force of the engine, transmission components, and wheels.

Horsepower is actually a product of the amount of torque applied over a period of time - the formula for which is: (RPM x torque) / 5,250 = HP. That's why you always see torque and horsepower lines on a dyno graph cross at 5,250 RPM.

When looking at a torque graph, there are two major components that you want to note: peak torque and the torque under the curve. Peak torque is exactly what is sounds like, it's the most torque the engine and drivetrain can produce. What's important about peak torque is where on the RPM range it occurs, which leads me to torque under the curve.

20v36_Torque.JPG

For most daily driven vehicles, you want peak torque to occur relatively early in the RPM range and be held near that point for as long as possible. Looking at the 2.0L torque curve, you can see that the peak torque of 264 lb. ft. occurs somewhere around 3,250 RPM, but you're close to that number by about 2,700 RPM and the curve stays above 200 lb. ft. until the redline at 5,750 RPM. With the mild hybrid system active, you would see about 130+ lb ft. of torque from 0-1,500 RPM as x3L posted.

Comparing the 2.0L graph to the 3.6L graph, you can see that the 3.6L makes more torque between 1,500 RPM and 2,150 RPM, and stays flat through a longer RPM range. But, the peak torque is significantly lower than the 2.0L and even at redline, the 2.0L is making more torque than the peak 3.6L torque.

So, what does that mean for you and your 2.0L? Most people, whether they're driving around town or off-roading, will spend most of their time between 1,000 RPM and 3,500-4,500 RPM. Unless you're in the wrong gear, or drag racing all the time, you will likely never see the 5,700 RPM where the 2.0L torque falls below the 3.6L torque. While the 3.6L might get to peak torque a little faster and stay there longer, the 2.0L has much more usable torque than the 3.6L, and with the addition of the mild-hybrid system, that time to peak torque will make even less of a difference.

:whew: I hope all of that makes sense and doesn't add to your confusion! Feel free to let me know if you have any other questions!

-Steve
That is extremely helpful! Thank you very much for taking the time to break this down in simple terms.
:like: :like: :like:
I only have about 700 miles on my brand new Turbo and I’m loving it so far. It’s great to have some data to support my intuition! It does feel like it has a lot of usable power. I particularly like how effortless it feels on steep uphills or at higher speeds on highways. In both scenarios it feels like it still has a lot of untapped power in reserve.

Thanks again. :rock:
 

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I believe the 3.6L was likely on 87/89 gas, but it was on loan to us so I would have to ask the owner to be sure. We didn't see any evidence of knock with the 3.6L or the 2.0L. So, I would image the difference in power and torque between any level of octane on the stock 3.6L tune to be less than 10 HP/10 TQ.



I didn't realize that the gearing was that much different between the two. I think you might get a little better wheel-torque out of the 3.6L with the smaller tires, but that's too much math for me before coffee. :whew:



We can probably help with at least one of those :D



These runs start just after the mild hybrid system shut off (which should be about 1,500 RPM). Since we run the vehicle at that RPM for a few seconds before rolling into the run, the electric assist is likely completely off, so you're seeing only what the engine is producing.



No problem! We actually have a couple really detailed articles on our blog about horsepower, torque and dynos. You can check those out here (or read my novella below :D )

https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/10/mighty-horse-horsepower/

https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/07/equipment-profile-mishimoto-is-dyno-mite/

What you (and most people who daily-drive or off-road with their Jeeps) will likely be most concerned with is the torque graph. Torque is what propels the vehicle forward and is the result of the rotational force of the engine, transmission components, and wheels.

Horsepower is actually a product of the amount of torque applied over a period of time - the formula for which is: (RPM x torque) / 5,250 = HP. That's why you always see torque and horsepower lines on a dyno graph cross at 5,250 RPM.

When looking at a torque graph, there are two major components that you want to note: peak torque and the torque under the curve. Peak torque is exactly what is sounds like, it's the most torque the engine and drivetrain can produce. What's important about peak torque is where on the RPM range it occurs, which leads me to torque under the curve.

20v36_Torque.JPG

For most daily driven vehicles, you want peak torque to occur relatively early in the RPM range and be held near that point for as long as possible. Looking at the 2.0L torque curve, you can see that the peak torque of 264 lb. ft. occurs somewhere around 3,250 RPM, but you're close to that number by about 2,700 RPM and the curve stays above 200 lb. ft. until the redline at 5,750 RPM. With the mild hybrid system active, you would see about 130+ lb ft. of torque from 0-1,500 RPM as x3L posted.

Comparing the 2.0L graph to the 3.6L graph, you can see that the 3.6L makes more torque between 1,500 RPM and 2,150 RPM, and stays flat through a longer RPM range. But, the peak torque is significantly lower than the 2.0L and even at redline, the 2.0L is making more torque than the peak 3.6L torque.

So, what does that mean for you and your 2.0L? Most people, whether they're driving around town or off-roading, will spend most of their time between 1,000 RPM and 3,500-4,500 RPM. Unless you're in the wrong gear, or drag racing all the time, you will likely never see the 5,700 RPM where the 2.0L torque falls below the 3.6L torque. While the 3.6L might get to peak torque a little faster and stay there longer, the 2.0L has much more usable torque than the 3.6L, and with the addition of the mild-hybrid system, that time to peak torque will make even less of a difference.

:whew: I hope all of that makes sense and doesn't add to your confusion! Feel free to let me know if you have any other questions!

-Steve
Thanks for info. In your experience, what sort of numbers could we 2.0L owners reasonably expect from a Stage 1 tune of just reprogramming? And perhaps a Stage 2 Intake/Exhaust replacement tune? Thanks forcany insight.
 

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Thanks for info. In your experience, what sort of numbers could we 2.0L owners reasonably expect from a Stage 1 tune of just reprogramming? And perhaps a Stage 2 Intake/Exhaust replacement tune? Thanks forcany insight.
It's tough to say for this specific engine without yet knowing how all of the turbo dynamics are interacting, but on similar 2.0L turbo, direct-injected engines, it's not uncommon to see 50-60 lb. ft. WTQ gains and 40-50 WHP. gains on stock engines with a tune. Intake/exhaust tunes may bring in 70-80 lb. ft. WTQ and 50-60 WHP gains (over stock).

Cooling and flow through the intercooler will be one of the biggest challenges, given that the intercooler is integrated into the intake manifold.

Thanks!
-Steve
 

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Surprised the BSG has less torque than the non-BSG 3.6 up to 2150 when it’s supposed to hold around 130 lbs at a cold stop.
BSG on the 3.6 holds around 90 lbs. It's the Hemi BSG, which is larger, that achieves 130 lbs. Don't expect too much, but it will help make up for that low end turbo lag off the line.

EDIT: see below
 
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2.0L is 70 lb/ft
3.6L is 90 lb/ft
5.7L is 130 lb/ft
According to FCA
 

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Soooo. Which one should I order. The 2.0 or the 3.6 for my Rubicon 4dr. I just can’t decide....I drove both, and obviously the turbo gets up and goes. I compare the 3.6 in my 2dr Jk and it’s faster and smoother than both, which I really like....why did jeep change the 3.6? seems like a dog off the line
 

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At 2,000 RPM's the torque of both engines is about the same.

At 3,000 RPM's the engine of any car I have driven is just about screaming. So I am not sure that I want to go beyond 3,000 RPM's. That implies the extra torque is not that useful. What have I missed?
.
 

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That's the most narrow powerband I've seen on a Jeep engine in decades. Ouch.

By comparison, the Pentastar torque curve is as flat as an Oklahoma highway.
For the second time in two threads over two days, I’ve gotta ask.. what are you looking at?
 

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I'm surprised the Pentastar didn't do better!
 

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At 2,000 RPM's the torque of both engines is about the same.

At 3,000 RPM's the engine of any car I have driven is just about screaming. So I am not sure that I want to go beyond 3,000 RPM's. That implies the extra torque is not that useful. What have I missed?
.
At 3000 RPM my wife's CR-V won't even upshift. At 3000 RPM, a large V6 or any V8 isn't even breathing heavy. Most modern 4s redline above 6000 RPM, and some at 7-8000 ( I think the inline 4 in the Honda S2000 redlined around 9000 RPM). What you've missed is about 40% of your power curve.
 

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Soooo. Which one should I order. The 2.0 or the 3.6 for my Rubicon 4dr. I just can’t decide....I drove both, and obviously the turbo gets up and goes. I compare the 3.6 in my 2dr Jk and it’s faster and smoother than both, which I really like....why did jeep change the 3.6? seems like a dog off the line
Neither. You should wait for the 3.6 BSG and get that extra 90 ftlbs of torque off the line and a smooth, flat powerband across the board. Win-win.
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