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Moab’s best trails threatened…

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Rubi SoHo

Rubi SoHo

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lol. The proof is left to the reader.
People with science creds get it.
It's easy to toss out the words "peer reviewed," and yes that is were good data lives. It's also behind paywalls.

Do you have access to the environmental science journals via your job or university?
Are you willing to do just a little bit of homework yourself?

I know you'll find articles on the effect of plastics on birds and fish. I have friends who have studied this.

Not sure if there are articles on the effect of rubber granuals in the desert. Would be a good study. But the analogy of plastic is sound.
I also have science credentials, but I don’t need to wave them about to try to convince others they should take my word at face value. I’ll simply hold you to the basic “support your claim with evidence” doctrine that is the cornerstone of good science.

In a debate, it falls upon the person making the claim to provide proof/evidence of the claim’s veracity. If your science credentials are as you say they are, you surely know this well. You don’t get to just make something up in your polymer science career and then tell everyone else “prove me wrong!” That’s not how science works.

But this post makes it clear that you have no data. You’re making large assumptions about what you think you know or can assume based upon plastics science. You freely admit you have not read any data that shows that rubber shed from jeep tires in Moab is directly responsible for the types of environmental damage you’re implying it is responsible for.

It’s just as likely that the tire granules are not doing the damage you suggest, and until someone studies it and proves otherwise, you shouldn’t use your appeal to authority fallacy to argue that certain segments of the population should be barred from accessing public lands due to their preferred method of doing so.
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grimmjeeper

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lol. The proof is left to the reader.
People with science creds get it.
It's easy to toss out the words "peer reviewed," and yes that is were good data lives. It's also behind paywalls. Doesn't help much if I provide links to stuff you can't read.

Do you have access to the environmental science journals via your job or university?
Are you willing to do just a little bit of homework yourself?

I know you'll find articles on the effect of plastics on birds and fish. I have friends who have studied this.

Not sure if there are articles on the effect of rubber granuals in the desert. Would be a good study. But the analogy of plastic is sound.
You made the claim. You are responsible for furnishing the evidence to back it up. That's how science works.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#:~:text=The burden of proof is usually on the person who,the person who lays charges."

Saying "the reader can research it" is a tactic used by conspiracy theorists and other less than credible types.

You made the claim. You back it up.
 

jaymz

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So yes. For public land that belongs to everyone, If you can walk it faster than you can drive it (jeep or ATV or motorcycle) what is the point of driving? Just walk the trail and enjoy the view, enjoy the wildlife that you will see because you aren't making lots of noise. Enjoy the plants and flowers that thrive when you don't pollute the air with NOX. Drive to the trailhead, park, and walk. One of the best things they did at Zion Ntl Park was to restrict cars and get everyone to take the shuttle.

SHould we still have jeep and ATV trails - YES.
Jeep trails that lead to trailheads for walking. The MOAB area is huge. You need the equivalent of forest service dirt roads, and then hiking trails that branch out from the trail heads.

If you want to do hard core rock crawling I support private enterprise that uses their own land to create an off road park. That's what we have in Texas.

But when we set aside public land - we did so to preserve it for future generations AS IS. Not with rubber granules in the water supply.
Looks like you’re parked on the beach in your profile pic. Why didn’t you park on the pavement and walk the rest of the way?
 

yetisarereal

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lol. The proof is left to the reader.
People with science creds get it.
It's easy to toss out the words "peer reviewed," and yes that is were good data lives. It's also behind paywalls. Doesn't help much if I provide links to stuff you can't read.

Do you have access to the environmental science journals via your job or university?
Are you willing to do just a little bit of homework yourself?

I know you'll find articles on the effect of plastics on birds and fish. I have friends who have studied this.

Not sure if there are articles on the effect of rubber granules in the desert. Would be a good study. But the analogy of plastic is sound.
I also happen to deal a fair bit materials engineering, which is why your whole argument is a bit silly to me. The percentage of material likely to be removed versus the erosion of freedoms is unacceptable. If you really believe in the need to shutdown trails based on rubber granules then your need PROOF. The most unscientific thing you can do is stand behind a belief with no proof. You admitted there are no studies, so you are merely talking about hypotheticals out of your rear.

I would argue the salt and road coatings used throughout the nation have a much greater impact on our national parks. Or the wind blown micro plastics. Or hell even the wind blown soot from cities. Despite all of that you still think the most pressing matter is reducing Jeep trails? No wonder you live in Texas.

You also never really address the impact on differently-abled Americans and just wrote us off with a 'I dunno do something'.
 

X-Treme

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I did my part and submitted comment.

Edit: OP, I also cross posted the bulk of your post on the main Bronco6G forum. I know, I know but allies don't hurt.
They are a part of the offroad community
I will definitely be leaving a comment for the BLM. I'm all for smart and practical environmentalism but I think those that wish to remove access with the excuse 'well you can hike it' or ' just bike it' completely lack empathy for those with poor mobility. Not everyone is blessed with the physical requirements to visit some of these distant and remote areas. Do people in that situation have no right to recreate and also enjoy the public lands? Seems like a slippery slope in deciding which groups should be granted access to public lands. Hiking can cause just as much wear and tear on the landscape over time. Everybody recreating on foot would just lead to enormous rock surface wear and also erosion. One only needs to visit some the most popular peaks in Appalachia or a popular cave system to see rock surface wear from foot traffic. I mean if zero or low impact is the goal then all access should be removed and we can all just look at it from afar with binoculars, because there is no such thing as low impact or zero impact trails within an ecosytem.
i absolutely agree with this. Having had a hip replacement and experienced profound muscle loss in my thigh, i cannot hike or even walk a trail without assistance. I can, however, get up into my Jeep and drive trails that allow me to enjoy the beautiful scenery in Moab. I respect the trails i am privileged enough to be able to drive on and spend my hard earned dollars in the extract same way that a hiker or biker does. Seems a little extreme to allow one group of people the privilege to enjoy these trails but not another group of people because you ‘think’ they are ruining YOUR experience or the environment. Even a hiker or biker and ATV drivers can disturb the trails and ride over flora and fauna without even realizing it and it seems a little hypocritical if you ask me. Jeep on people because we are some of the most caring off-roaders out there!
 

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Rubi SoHo

Rubi SoHo

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Be careful, we’re on the edge of getting “No politics warning”. Don’t get close to the truth or go against the narrative and everything will be fine. It only gets called political if you disagree.
I don’t think we’ve discussed politics at all really.
 

BDinTX

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No wonder you live in Texas.
hold up, most of us in Texas like guns, Jeeps with internal combustion engines, and breakfast burritos.
You shouldn’t lump us all together.

The private parks here are pathetic compared to what Mother Nature has to offer. The one possible exception might be Merus Adventure park which costs $850 annually so no thanks.
 

Astro Jeep

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We have seen how the term "follow the science" has been tossed about the last few years. It has been used to shame anyone with a differing opinion. The problem with '"follow the science" of late is that the "science" has more often than not been shown to be wrong.

This is not just a reference to the pandemic, but to the self anointed protectors of the environment. I am a believer in climate change, but I am also a believer in not telling everyone that "the sky is falling" and that we only "have 12 more years left before we have irreversible consequences."

There should be moderation. We should be able to enjoy our lives and prosperity while at the same time protecting the environment. Some places such as National Parks should be protected. Places like Moab have already been designated by common usage over time as a vehicular play area and should remain as such.

I guarantee you if Moab is shut down there will be even more areas damaged by off roading. Since Moab will be essentially off limits people like myself will search elsewhere to offload and will blaze new trails thus damaging even more of the environment.

Additionally, you will irreversibly damage the economy of Moab. How many businesses will be shut down? How many people will lose their jobs? There won't be enough hikers and bikers to sustain the economy of Moab at the current level.

Personally I think the National Park Service should take over the area and designate it as a National Off-Road Vehicular Park. Charge an entrance fee. Put cameras up all over the place and mail out massive fines to those that litter and go off designated trails. The fees could cover the cost of protecting the area while allowing off roaders to do their thing.
 

Astro Jeep

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X-Treme

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We have seen how the term "follow the science" has been tossed about the last few years. It has been used to shame anyone with a differing opinion. The problem with '"follow the science" of late is that the "science" has more often than not been shown to be wrong.

This is not just a reference to the pandemic, but to the self anointed protectors of the environment. I am a believer in climate change, but I am also a believer in not telling everyone that "the sky is falling" and that we only "have 12 more years left before we have irreversible consequences."

There should be moderation. We should be able to enjoy our lives and prosperity while at the same time protecting the environment. Some places such as National Parks should be protected. Places like Moab have already been designated by common usage over time as a vehicular play area and should remain as such.

I guarantee you if Moab is shut down there will be even more areas damaged by off roading. Since Moab will be essentially off limits people like myself will search elsewhere to offload and will blaze new trails thus damaging even more of the environment.

Additionally, you will irreversibly damage the economy of Moab. How many businesses will be shut down? How many people will lose their jobs? There won't be enough hikers and bikers to sustain the economy of Moab at the current level.

Personally I think the National Park Service should take over the area and designate it as a National Off-Road Vehicular Park. Charge an entrance fee. Put cameras up all over the place and mail out massive fines to those that litter and go off designated trails. The fees could cover the cost of protecting the area while allowing off roaders to do their thing.
Can you imagine the monetary loss if EJS was turned away?
 

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DadJokes

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Man, the likely hypocrisy coming from those who often agree with restriction of access to PUBLIC lands is no longer surprising. They’re probably all for strip mining and digging for ores to produce more “green” batteries (some dug up by 6 year old kids in the mud and dirt under unsafe work conditions in the Congo). They’re non recyclable so that’s trash. Toxic trash. Then there’s the habitat/scenery killing solar farms and windmills. That’s not environmental. Nor is it habitat conservation. But let’s worry about first world problems like motorized noise, right? So these self declared champions of protecting something decide who gets in and who doesn’t and how much rubber (from a tire or shoe) is left behind? Maybe the animals are completely in shock from our mere presence and nobody should get in. Ever. Then it’s kinda hard to sell being a real conservationist and environmentalist habitat protector if nobody appreciates the beauty because they cannot see it. Well, maybe except Google Earth?

I could agree to compromise and let the area rest for a season or two but my opinion is it should be agreed upon and brief. If you close one, how much more traffic does another pick up? Do these people indefinitely closing trails think someone will cancel their plans altogether? I wouldn’t. I’d just drive, leave rubber, and make noise on another. You know what else I always do, in addition to teaching my kids the same, is if I see trash, we take it with us. We try to leave it better. I hike some too. The trailheads aren’t always just off paved roads. So we’re ok with that trail use to get to a hiking trailhead? I know a Jeep is heavier and can damage a trail more than person can in a short amount of time, but limiting that use, the argument will then eventually be made to eliminate human interaction because over a longer time, people can and have done the same damage. One might think that’s absurd now, but give it another 20 years of the current thinking.

And how much good do these local, and sometimes not even local, groups do to clean up after others…without regard to how trash etc got there? There’s good people out there not just talking the talk.
 
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four low

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The advent of EVs, from Bikes, to every description of Off Road vehicle, will go a long way to address the noise complaints, chances of fires from hot exhaust/ emissions components ; Drones could be excellent platforms to prevent bad behavior that jeopardizes trail use for all.
Closing trails and access for reasons that will no longer exist in 5 years is short sighted
 

Ruby Mike

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Balancing use now vs keeping a wild area wild for our great grandkids shouldn’t be political.
I keep hearing "saving lands for our children". If you close an area now, it will be closed then. I know that some groups will never be happy until all southern Utah is closed to any mechanized use. Without going political, consider this. Over 100 million acres of public lands are in the wilderness system. Big ear national monument was returned to original size.
I normally stay out of conversations like this because it becomes emotional and facts tend to go out the window. In Sounther California the majority of desert lands are either wilderness, national parks or preserves. Yet the push for more "wilderness" continues.
Is there rubber on the trails at Moab, yes. Is it destroying nature, no. (My humble opinion)
Do we now control and deny access by vehicles today and tomorrow? I can no longer be the active hiker I was in my youth. (Knee replacement, heart attack and generally older) I rely on using my jeep to enjoy the wild places.
Are there reckless and rogue jeep, OHV users? Yes. Are there reckless and rogue hikers? Again yes.
What is the answer. In my humble opinion, allow access to our wild areas by vehicles. Keep the wilderness and national parks as they are. Encourage and most importantly be involved with trail maintenance and clean up, be involved with local 4x4 groups. Tread lightly. Practice what we preach. Educate others and speak out when you see something wrong.
The future of our activity is in our hands. Provide comments to the BLM. Don't be passive.
 

BDinTX

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On one hand I like the fact that the back and forth is keeping this thread at the top, hopefully encouraging more and more people to take action.

On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that @jimcoffey62 could own a Jeep and actually believe there isn’t a better solution than eliminating access.

I suspect you just like to argue for sport though.

What is the answer. In my humble opinion, allow access to our wild areas by vehicles. Keep the wilderness and national parks as they are. Encourage and most importantly be involved with trail maintenance and clean up, be involved with local 4x4 groups. Tread lightly. Practice what we preach. Educate others and speak out when you see something wrong.
The future of our activity is in our hands. Provide comments to the BLM. Don't be passive.
100% Mike, well said. I would add “enforce existing laws and rules” but that seems to be a foreign concept to our government.
 

Anonymous

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Bump. Even though we see differing opinions in this thread…thanks for keeping it civil.
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