Confusion re: lift kits

[tntemerson]

I know there’s myriad threads on this, but I’m still getting lost.

I’m retired and budgeted, but getting serious about a Sport JLU, limited slip, 6 speed. If I buy, it will be my fourth FWD starting with a new CJ5 when I was 20, so I’m not new to off roading. But I don’t need and can’t afford a Rubi or a full crawler, as it’s going to be mostly for highway usage. But I would like to manage off highway, from graded roads with the inevitable wash boarding, possibly to moderate 4x4 trails, maybe up to a 3-4 (Out of 10. I suspect five and up might be pushing it a bit for a Dana 30 front end and no lockers).

So with that in mind, I’m thinking about a 2.5” lift kit and a set of 35" tires. I don’t think a simple body boost is appropriate, and if the Sport springs are too soft and limited for moderate trails and maybe adding a heavier bumper and winch, I’m thinking about a lift with springs.

The problem is I don’t really understand lift kits that well and am becoming very confused looking at the options and trying to understand the nomenclature.

Budget boost, suspension lift, short arm, long arm, control arm, shock extensions, kits with shocks, kits with no shocks, stage 1, stage 2, stage 3, stage 4, kits with springs and arms, kits with arms but no springs, kits with springs but no arms, bowed Mopar springs, castor, axle centering, length of travel, necessitation of realignment, highway ride, pulling, death wobble, et al. I get some of this, but I just don’t completely understand the purpose and function of all these variations.

If anyone who knows about these things and want’s to chime in and edumacate me, I’d be happy to listen and very appreciative.

Thanks!

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[Pressurized]

Let's see if we can help a little.

We'll start by saying this early in the process, there aren't a lot of shocks that fit the JL. So we'll kind of ignore the "shocks" questions for the most part. What we will address is the shock extensions. These bolt on to the shocks and mounts to effectively make the stock shocks longer to match up with the lifted suspension.

Budget Boost - This is a spacer lift kit. Keeps stock springs and uses spacers to create lift.

Suspension Lift - This is a typical spring style lift. It will usually also include some brackets for track bars, etc. They will often have a higher spring rate than stock which allows for added "heavy" equipment like bumpers and skid plates.

Short Arm - This refers to the length of the control arms. The JL is really more of a mid arm design but when someone refers to a short arm lift it is using the stock suspension control arm mounting locations.

Long Arm - Again, control arm length. A long arm kit usually requires cutting off the stock control arm mounting locations and welding on new mounts to the frame that allow for notably longer control arms to be ran. There are many opinions on long arms... Set up properly, they allow for maximum articulation. They also often reduce ground clearance.

Control Arm - This is the set of "tubes" that connects the axle to the frame. They have bushings on each end which allow the axle to flex (twist) when needed.

Lift kit with shocks - Just what it describes, it means the lift kit comes with shocks designed to be compatible with the lift kit.

Kit with no shocks - As described, it will be a kit but without shocks, some kits without shocks include shock extensions.

"Stage" kits - These are typically kits that increase the number of component upgrades as you move up the scale. Stage 1 is usually a basic lift kit, Stage 2 will add something like shocks, Stage 3 will add aftermarket adjustable control arms, etc. Keep in mind that one manufacturers "stage" will not match up at all to another manufacturers "stage".

Bowed Mopar Springs - The Mopar kit is having some trouble with the design of their spring bases which are intended to add bow to their springs. What is happening is they are getting much more bow than anticipated on the drivers side of many installations. They are working on a solution that should be out in a few weeks. Rock Krawler already has a solution that is supposed to be shipping this week.

Caster - this is the angle of the front kingpin. It generally causes the vehicle to go straight when you let go of the wheel. It is what causes the "return to center" effect when you go around a corner and let go of the steering wheel and it straightens out on its own. When we lift a Jeep, the caster decreases due to the geometry of the control arms. When caster gets low, you begin to lose some of the "return to center" effect and that can cause the Jeep to lightly wander when driving at speed. Fortunately, caster is super easy to increase with some aftermarket front lower control arms.

Axle Centering - Solid axle suspensions hold the axle from side to side with a track bar. The track bar goes from the axle to the frame perpendicular to the direction of the Jeep. Whereas control arms typically go in line with the direction of the Jeep. As we lift the Jeep, the track bar gains more angle from the fulcrum point which causes the axle to shift to the side and is no longer "centered". Fortunately, an axle that is slightly off center has no effect on the drive quality of the Jeep.

Length of travel - I assume we mean amount of flex/articulation. This is how far the wheel can travel in full suspension motion. When one tire is fully compressed in to the fender and the opposite tire is full extended or drooped, that is called full flex. The amount of flex is limited by 2 things. Bump stops control how much compression (stuff) travel you have and shock length determines how much extension (droop) you have. Longer shocks, more droop, etc. There are limits however, if you put on shocks that are too long for your springs, your springs can get loose and even fall out. You would not experience this with a kit though, only someone getting crazy and doin' their own thing.

Alignment - I always recommend an alignment after a lift kit. They will set the toe properly and also give you your baseline caster number. This lets you know if you want to add more caster if needed, etc.

Highway ride - For me, this is the ride quality when driving on "nice" roads. It should be noted that its not uncommon to have a premium lift kit and super heavy duty tires on a Jeep that hasn't added extra weight, etc. ride very firm and even harsh when built that way. If highway ride quality is important, stick to lift kits with lower spring rates and also kits with "better" shocks.

Pulling - This is when you are driving and if you let go of the steering wheel, the Jeep wants to "pull" to one side of the road or the other. It can be caused by a number of things, but tires are a very common cause as are gas charged steering stabilizers.

Death Wobble - DW is a violent shaking of the axle under the Jeep. It can be caused by many things including worn out or loose bushings and ball joints, etc. But the top cause is a problem with the front track bar. If a Jeep is put together properly with quality components, DW is very rare.

Now for some opinion... Based on your description of use, the Mopar kit would be a good one. They run lighter spring rates than many of the other manufacturers and that makes for a great ride quality especially when paired with the very good Fox shocks that are in the kit. Just wait for their spring base correction or buy the Rock Krawler bases for $30 and be done with it.

 

[aug0211]

Let's see if we can help a little.

We'll start by saying this early in the process, there aren't a lot of shocks that fit the JL. So we'll kind of ignore the "shocks" questions for the most part. What we will address is the shock extensions. These bolt on to the shocks and mounts to effectively make the stock shocks longer to match up with the lifted suspension.
......

Saved for future reference - this is an awesome writeup. Thank you!!!

 

[Dreadnought_Leviathan]

Seriously! Thank you so much! Great write up.

 

[tntemerson]

Let's see if we can help a little.

ABSOLUTELY FIRST CLASS ANSWER!

This cleared up a great deal of confusion. I’m likely to take your advice on the Mopar, but can I trouble you to help me refine this a bit more?

Some are saying that an adjustable track bar is important (now that I know what it is and what it does!), especially if a wobble should arise. The Mopar kit doesn’t include one. Would the only effect be a slight pulling of the axle to the driver’s side, revealing a bit more tire there? Otherwise, no ill effects or wobble problems likely? No one seems to be reporting troubles with the Mopar other than the spring bow.

The Mopar kit includes new control arms (now that I know what they are and what they do!). They’re also not adjustable. Are they just cut to fit the new height, no other concessions likely?

One other kit that seems to make sense now, and very close to the Mopar, is the Rock Krawler, with non adjustable control arms, BUT an adjustable track bar, although no shocks, and possibly a bit harsher, although they claim “an excellent highway ride”: https://www.rubitrux.com/rock-krawler-jlu-2-5-adventure-series-1.html

Opinion on the two, Mopar, or Rock Krawler WITH the adj. track bar plus added shocks, limited as they might be to find?

Finally, for anyone out there interested in lift kits, 35” tires, and warranties on new Jeep vehicles:

I contacted Chrysler National Consumer Help directly asking them how a lift kit, especially the Mopar, would effect warranties. They sent back a very nice five paragraph letter with a link to their warranty PDF, and a suggestion that this is the sort of thing worked out with a dealer. The PDF warranty said damage from anything added after ‘factory’ would not be covered, apparently suggesting not even the Mopar lift, a Chrysler endorsed product.

So I Yelped all the 41 Jeep dealers within 100 miles of me here in NorCal, and sadly, Chrysler/Jeep has among the LOWEST satisfaction ratings of most of the auto brand dealers. Most were 3-3.5 stars out of 5, more than HALF were 2.5 stars or LESS. Still I went with the nearest of the 6 four star dealers for info.

First I tried to contact the dealership owner’s son and sales manager at his email on the dealer website, with the warranty question. Three weeks passed and he never replied. Then I tried to contact the assistant sales manager. He never replied. Then I filled out their sales contact form and the son and sales manager DID reply the very next day, asking how he could help with a sale. When I sent back an email about the lift kit and warranty question, a week passed and he failed to replied again. Whew.

So I contacted the dealership “chat online”, for 30 minutes, with the question: how does a lift kit, esp. the Mopar, and 35” tires effect warranties? A half hour. Chatter was kind, said she had to contact management to find an answer, and after 30 minutes finally said I should talk to a salesman, asking for my phone number. Sigh. I yielded. A salesman called within minutes of the chat, trying to make a sale. After I put the warranty question to him, he balked. He said I’d have to talk to the service department, as they managed all warranty considerations. I told him if he could guarantee the warranty, I’d order the JLU with him the very next day. I could feel him worrying about a sale slipping away, but he STILL insisted I talk to service.

So I called the service department. I couldn’t get to the service manager, but I did get a service advisor. He said any lift kit under 3” shouldn’t effect warranties. He said many customers added them. He also said that everyone was driving around with 35” tires, so they must be fine. I asked if they would put this in writing at the purchase, or should I just accept his word. As to putting it in writing, he basically said, “No way, Jose!” (Jose actually being the name of the service advisor!) I asked not even if the dealer added the Mopar lift? Service advisor said that they did NOT install lift kits. I know some do (probably including this one), building lifted trick showroom Wranglers, marking up components and labor to the hilt. But this dealer’s service advisor said no, they would NOT install the Mopar lift.

Now maybe if I pressed to get to a service manager and a sales manager I might get them to yield. But it’s really a runaround trying to get them to commit to this warranty thing, or EVEN to install the Mopar lift.

Apparently, the best I can hope for is that if I DO lift and modify tire/wheel configurations, AND something in suspension or drive train fails, the dealership MIGHT be willing to help me out, but NO guarantees. I suppose if your brother in law owns the dealership, you’ll be fine. Otherwise, you must hope that they end up liking you when all is said and done.

All I know is that if they are only willing to go so far in order to get you to buy, they’re not all that likely to go much further after you’ve signed the deal.

I might try another dealer just to see how they address this. But as I noted, this one had the highest customer satisfaction rating within 100 miles, and they STILL couldn’t give me a straight answer.

If anyone’s interested.

UPDATE!

Well, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and all that pestering I posted about FINALLY got to the sales manager / franchise owner's son. I no sooner posted the above rant when I got an email with a hearty apology. Here's what he said:

"I apologize for the delayed response. Anything that is done with Mopar is covered. Especially a minor lift like the one you're thinking about putting on. We should be able to do that for you if you decided to order your new Jeep with us. Let me know if I can assist any further."

Good news for those interested in the Mopar lift.

 

[Pressurized]

The adjustable track bar is nice to have, especially if your axle shift is really noticeable. Jeeps are an odd bird in the automotive world. Every Jeep is a little different and you could put the same exact lift on 2 identical Jeeps and one can have the front axle shifted and noticeable and the other could have the rear axle shifted and noticeable but the front is fine... That's just how Jeeps are. I've often said, build with the minimum parts needed and adjust from there. I'm a bit OCD, so I do run an adjustable track bar both front and rear.

The control arms in the Mopar kit are "fixed" length arms, a lot like the stock ones, but longer to address caster due to the amount of lift added. They are a direct swap, nothing else to do.

I like Rock Krawler, and run their springs on my JK. They will be a higher spring rate than the Mopar, but not drastic. The RK springs are generally a nice ride... Here's my take on how to compare the 2. If you know you are going to add a little weight, like steel bumpers front and rear, a skid plate or 3, a winch and you plan to carry tools and recovery gear in back, I'd lean towards the Rock Krawler setup. If staying closer to stock equipment and not adding much weight, I'd lean towards the Mopar kit.

For now, the shocks are one of the challenges when building a JL. They do flex nicely on stock shocks so adding the shock extensions to a lift kit isn't a horrible thing, and can be updated later with the addition of new shocks. But most of the shocks currently available for the JL are pretty spendy, I think the entry level King's are about $1000 a set and the OEM Performance Series are around $2600 a set. But aren't they beautiful?

I will add a kit to the mix... I have personally done a bit of development work with Superlift and I think they guys in their R&D department are pretty sharp. Their JL kit is a steal. It's a spring kit for the price of a Budget Boost. I have not seen the kit first hand so it's less of a recommendation and more of making you aware that it's out there. For the $$, I think I would have to try it. Then I could do some adjustable Rancho shocks when they come out and a track bar or 2... But it's got the shock extensions to get you going.

https://www.superlift.com/2-inch-lift-kit-2018-jeep-wrangler-jl-unlimited-standard-kit

As for the Mopar kit and it's spring bow, now that the Rock Krawler correction pads are available, it's still a great option. My hobby shop (Jeep shop owned by a close friend) has 11 of the Mopar kits in stock and has installed quite a few of them. He also ordered 30 sets of the RK correction pads so that he can fix the ones he has already installed. Once fixed, they are very nice.

 

[tntemerson]

Thanks for the reply and all the help!

If you’re interested, and have the time, a story:

First new car was a CJ5 w/limited slip, open front with Warn’s. I was 20. Threw Cepek wheels and tires on it, about the only ones you could get in those days. Put 100k on it in 24 months all through SoCal and Ariz, and stuck it too many times to remember. High centered it in a riverbed one night with a girlfriend. Had to fill the tailgate and rear box with boulders to pull it down and get some traction. Girlfriend was game and helped. But I was hooked on 4x4’s, although I still had several runabout sedans to commute over the years. One time that girlfriend and I were running a remote gravel road in one of my 2WD sedans near what today is Death Valley Natl. Park. Came around a bend and hit a deep, dry sandy river bed. If I stopped, I’d be stuck. So I just hit it and powered through. Hit three or four more of them, running at them at high speed to get through, before coming onto gravel again that led us over a mountain and back to pavement. Out there with no water. To be young again.

Single again at 30, I bought a Toyota 4x4 open front/rear and lifted it. Just blocks and added a leaf in the rear. Added wheels and tires. Drove it to death. Ran through three 5 speed transmissions and a clutch. Pushed it through some pretty difficult trails, probably 4s, but maybe even 5’s or 6’s, just bouncing, slipping, and powering through with open axles. Didn’t know how to rate so I’m guessing looking back. To manage crawling rocks and deep washouts, I just cut brush and literally padded up the rocks or filled in the deep washouts, and bounced through. Never broke an axel, but did pop a motor mount and virtually threw out a leaf from the rear springs one time, and wore out the ball joints. Had it in rushing water so deep, waves bounced over the hood and it still it came out the other side before drowning. 95 horse power. Ha! Still, had fun.

Married at 40 and opted for a GMC 4x4 1/2 ton 5 speed with a shell. No mods. Just drove it. Wheeled it on easy 1-3 trails, mountains, and long desert washboards. Hunted, fished, repeatedly traveled 10 Western states, slept in the back.

Married AGAIN at 55. Wife bought a Prius (yikes!) to commute 120 miles a day to work, AND a 3/4 ton diesel Ford 250 to haul our horses. She tells me to wheel in her F250. NO WAY. If I damaged it, I’d be dog housed.

But never took the time or money to build out or trick one.

Now I’m 70, in fairly spirited health, and miss the trails. I need a newer vehicle and could opt for a cheap runabout. I put my retirement into our house and acreage for the wife and horses. If we REALLY want to hit the back country, we pack them in. But this all keeps me pretty darn busy. We live in the Sierra foothills, with trails all over the place starting about 1/2 hour out. To the the East, the Eastern Sierra, and the Great Basin all the way to Moab. The Rubicon and a half dozen other 6-10 rated trails are within one to three hours from me, with myriad 1-5 trails, Forest roads, truck trails, more. But alas, no way I can afford a dedicated crawler so 5-10 trails are out. But I’m anxious to just get out again on FS roads, mild 4x4 trails, truck trails, desert roads, maybe mild 2-4 crawls and moderate river crossings to a couple feet. Time’s an issue. But so is money.

My wife works. But everything on my end is budgeted on pensions. I love the Rubi’s with Dana44’s and full lockers, but not going to work the gas station to afford one. When adding lift plus wheels/tires plus tax + license, $50K STRIPPED. For more, Rubis’ are EASILY opted up to $60-70k! Of course it’s a bargain compared to a Ford Raptor. But it’s hard for a guy who drove a CJ5 off the showroom floor 1n 1968 for $2600 OUT THE DOOR. If I had real money left (after horses, trailers, diesel F250, custom saddles, shoeing 3 horses every 8 weeks, vet bills, property taxes, maintanence, et al), I’d build. I’d get a JL Sport S, replace the axles with monsters, non-electric lockers at maybe 4:88 or higher, heavy brakes, lift it 4-6”, run 42’s, trick out the Pentastar to max or replace it with a Mopar 318, join a club, and wheel. I don’t know all the current ins and outs, but I’d learn from good sources like you. But alas, everything’s now limited, time and money.

Being a long time pickup guy, I looked at GMC Canyons, Toyota Tacomas. But the new JL has just trapped my interest. Can’t stop looking at them or thinking about them. I might be hooked. Boys and their toys. But I’m JUST able to afford a stripped Sport with hard top, and for $595 LSD is a no brainer (If it’s STILL upgraded to the M220! Some confusion about that just now.) I’d add the modest lift, with just enough money left by selling my old truck to wheel/tire it to 35’s, maybe squeeze low step side rails for the older man in me, and MAYBE if there’s enough left, I’d add a bumper and winch, just in case the no lockers sticks me. So I’d end up with a Mall Crawler that mildly wheels. Oh well.

From your advice, I suspect I might go with the Mopar and the spring correction pads. Esp. since my dealer promises to honor all warranties with that mod. If it DOES shift the axles so much as to distress the compulsive in me, I suppose I COULD squeeze aftermarket track bars and have a custom shop install. That make sense? But I’m still considering the RK if my dealer will still honor warranties. I think the Fox shocks are available separately for the JL. I THINK. That might work with the RK too. Depends on the dealer I’ve selected and his warranty notions.

At any rate, thanks again. Better schooled now, your time and effort is much appreciated. By my story, you can see it HAS helped this person immensely.

 

[aug0211]

I will add a kit to the mix... I have personally done a bit of development work with Superlift and I think they guys in their R&D department are pretty sharp. Their JL kit is a steal. It's a spring kit for the price of a Budget Boost. I have not seen the kit first hand so it's less of a recommendation and more of making you aware that it's out there. For the $$, I think I would have to try it. Then I could do some adjustable Rancho shocks when they come out and a track bar or 2... But it's got the shock extensions to get you going.

https://www.superlift.com/2-inch-lift-kit-2018-jeep-wrangler-jl-unlimited-standard-kit

The fact that this is a lift + leveling kit + reasonable price has piqued my interest.... especially since someone who actually knows what they're talking about with lifts (you!) mentioned it.

Adding this to my list of options to consider, and research. I wish they had more photos available of it - it's hard to picture what the fender spacing will look like on a non-Rubi (lower fenders) with 35s.

Thanks again for all of this awesome info!

 

[aug0211]

Thanks for the reply and all the help!

If you’re interested, and have the time, a story:
...
...
At any rate, thanks again. Better schooled now, your time and effort is much appreciated. By my story, you can see it HAS helped this person immensely.

For what it's worth, this was an awesome read - thank you for sharing your story!

 

[NCSUSTATS]

How long do these aftermarket shocks last? And the stock Fox for that matter?

 

[Pressurized]

By my story, you can see it HAS helped this person immensely.

Great story, cheers!

How long do these aftermarket shocks last? And the stock Fox for that matter?

With the amount of time I spend on washboard roads and beat the snot out of shocks, I'd suggest they are good for 50-60k miles max. I've got 40k on my current Rancho's and I'm close to replacing them.

 

[Pressurized]

The fact that this is a lift + leveling kit + reasonable price has piqued my interest.... especially since someone who actually knows what they're talking about with lifts (you!) mentioned it.

Adding this to my list of options to consider, and research. I wish they had more photos available of it - it's hard to picture what the fender spacing will look like on a non-Rubi (lower fenders) with 35s.

Thanks again for all of this awesome info!

Thanks for the kind words!

I agree, it's really tough not to consider this kit as at least a starting point.

I suggest reaching out to Superlft and ask if they have any images on a non-Rubi. If not, maybe offer to take and send them some images for a little discount.

 

[aug0211]

Thanks for the kind words!

I agree, it's really tough not to consider this kit as at least a starting point.

I suggest reaching out to Superlft and ask if they have any images on a non-Rubi. If not, maybe offer to take and send them some images for a little discount.

Good idea - thank you!

The other question that popped into my head was you hear a lot of people talk about retaining the factory ride (or close to) by just using spacers and avoiding springs and shocks. I wonder how these springs affect the factory ride? Perhaps a bit harsher with the increased spring rates?

 

[Pressurized]

Good idea - thank you!

The other question that popped into my head was you hear a lot of people talk about retaining the factory ride (or close to) by just using spacers and avoiding springs and shocks. I wonder how these springs affect the factory ride? Perhaps a bit harsher with the increased spring rates?

Perhaps, but it's hard to say right now. I don't think anyone has publicized the JL spring rates yet. We know the JK was 122 and 165, and I suspect the JL is close to those as well. I will ask their R&D guys if they can share their spring rates. Some MFG's will and others wont. If I can't get the exact rates, maybe I can find a % increase. If within about 10% they would be considered "soft". That's the way OME springs usually are, about 10% increase over stock. And that's 1 reason why the OME kits ride so nicely. Others like Teraflex on the JK are 35-40% firmer, that's a much bigger difference. Will they all do the same thing on the JL? I like your word, perhaps....

 

[Godzilla]

Hey Pressurized,

Do you know the install cost for the Mopar lift at your hobby shop? I have to drive to PHX next month and I hope to have my JLUR by then - dealership told me yesterday that it was pushed back from the 10th to the 22nd. My dealership quoted me somewhere in the neighborhood of 1800 bucks to install it.

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