Sponsored

Can the math work out to justify a 4xe?

michail

Well-Known Member
First Name
Michael
Joined
Apr 22, 2021
Threads
46
Messages
577
Reaction score
301
Location
Florida
Vehicle(s)
2021 Sahara 4xe
We pay $0.10 / kWh, and possibly looking to go with a TOU account (with FPL), since our consumption will increase (a little) with this PHEV (and notable amount with our planned M3P purchase - waiting for Tesla get to get their Tax Credits back ...). Then we'd have $0.19 peak, but only $0.03 during off-peak (when we'd typically be charging, and most of the day when we're home).
My FPL rate is $0.12 /kWh when averaged out over their usage formula and fuel charges.

I just don't think I could do the TOU account given the need for air conditioning. I'm not sure how high the daytime setting would have to be. I'm likely going to be doing more work from home from now on.
Sponsored

 

RedundanT

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Threads
24
Messages
752
Reaction score
1,132
Location
So. Il
Vehicle(s)
2020 JLUR
This brings up an interesting point that gets ignored by the tree huggers. What ARE we in the country, far away from our jobs, shopping and ANY charging stations supposed to do? I'm over 30 miles one way from the nearest charging stations and they are at car dealerships. On weekends I can find myself 120 miles from my home. Yea this all electric utopia has MANY problems to solve before you FORCE me into it.
 

Ratiogear

Well-Known Member
First Name
Justin
Joined
Apr 15, 2021
Threads
1
Messages
243
Reaction score
434
Location
DFW
Vehicle(s)
2021 4xe Rubicon
I'm not sure what your complaint here is. No one is being forced. But as the world moves forward, 83% of the US population is estimated to live in cities. EVs are either the future or the first step towards the future (as a stop gap for removing dependence on fossil fuels).

It's capitalism. The larger part of the market will have access to charging stations and are interested in PHEVs. Government incentives and tax breaks pushing towards this are just a different brand of corp getting the benefits previously reserved for big oil. It's natural that corporations will want to make what sells, and PHEVs have a market that Stellantis (and everyone else clamoring to build EVs) wants to tap into.
It's pro-america. Moving towards renewable resources reduces our dependence on foreign oil, while improving energy infrastructure.
It's pro-environment. Less emissions, cleaner air, cleaner world. It's far from perfect, but it's a step.

Again, buy a diesel or a v6. No one is forcing you to buy anything.
 

MaskedRacerX

Well-Known Member
First Name
DT
Joined
May 1, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
147
Reaction score
172
Location
Florida East Coast
Vehicle(s)
'21 Wrangler Sahara 4xe
My FPL rate is $0.12 /kWh when averaged out over their usage formula and fuel charges.

I just don't think I could do the TOU account given the need for air conditioning. I'm not sure how high the daytime setting would have to be. I'm likely going to be doing more work from home from now on.
Yeah, I only just started looking at previous usage and determining if it would be worth the hassle. We run the AC pretty cold, we've always worked out of the house, so if it winds up (based on historical use) being a trivial discount, we'll just stick with our flat rate.
 

Zandcwhite

Well-Known Member
First Name
Zach
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Threads
10
Messages
4,249
Reaction score
7,579
Location
Patterson, ca
Vehicle(s)
2019 jlur
This brings up an interesting point that gets ignored by the tree huggers. What ARE we in the country, far away from our jobs, shopping and ANY charging stations supposed to do? I'm over 30 miles one way from the nearest charging stations and they are at car dealerships. On weekends I can find myself 120 miles from my home. Yea this all electric utopia has MANY problems to solve before you FORCE me into it.
Charge at home? Unless of course you're Amish. Stick to standard ICE vehicles if that's what you prefer? Buy a plug in hybrid, as you never HAVE to plug it in? Buy 1 of the many EV's on the market with 300+ mile range? Invest in solar for your home so your vehicle charges via the sun? Seems like you have more options now, not less?
 

Sponsored

WXman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Threads
61
Messages
2,855
Reaction score
3,076
Location
Central Kentucky
Vehicle(s)
2018 Wrangler Unlimited
Occupation
Meteorology and Transportation
I didn't consider getting a 4xe since most of my drives are far beyond its 30-mile range. For example, in a week I'll head off to Grand Canyon's North Rim, a roughly 1,800-mile round trip with virtually no place one could recharge a vehicle conveniently. Even "around town" most of my drives are far in excess of 30 miles.

So I'm wondering about the economics of having a 4xe. From what I read, the list price for the 4xe is about $14,000 higher than the list price for my JL. I live in San Diego, the home of stratospheric gas prices, so let's say a gallon will cost me $4.00. That means I can buy 3,500 gallons with the $14,000. I'm getting about 24 mpg, so those 3,500 gallons translate into 84,000 road miles.

There simply is no way I could rack up 84,000 miles in 30-mile electrified chunks around town. (That would be 2,800 short trips, such as commutes.) Even if I could reach that many local trips, most of my miles still would be long-distance miles powered by gas. I might have to drive the better part of a million miles to recapture the $14,000 via the battery, and that's not even worth imagining.

So, for me, the 4xe seems to make no sense, given the large price differential. Have you, as a driver of a 4xe, calculated that your style of driving will allow you to recapture the $14,000?
Absolutely not. Where I live, we enjoy the lowest utility rates in the nation. And even still, a 4xe will cost $0.09 per mile to operate on electricity only, and roughly $0.12 per mile on fuel (at current prices). Anywhere else in the nation, the cost of electricity is higher and therefore the cost per mile on electric-only mode will literally equal the cost per mile on gasoline. That alone means the 4xe will never add up financially.

But then you add in the extra cost, future costs of battery packs (and maybe electric motors when the brushes wear out), etc. and you end up behind. You're spending, not saving.

Then there are the environmental damages you're doing because you're buying a vehicle with a huge battery pack which is the dirtiest activity automakers have ever undertaken, and then when those battery packs get sent to the land fill it's a future nightmare. I have a family member who is the Commissioner of our state Division of Waste Management and he said they're already worried about how they're going to deal with solar panels and battery packs in the future.

There is Z E R O benefit to the 4xe. It's a ploy to make people feel like their favorite politicians are doing something great for them. In a way, it's a form of vote buying.

Having said all that, it's America and I'm a firm believer that everyone should be free to drive what they want!!!!
 

Zandcwhite

Well-Known Member
First Name
Zach
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Threads
10
Messages
4,249
Reaction score
7,579
Location
Patterson, ca
Vehicle(s)
2019 jlur
Absolutely not. Where I live, we enjoy the lowest utility rates in the nation. And even still, a 4xe will cost $0.09 per mile to operate on electricity only, and roughly $0.12 per mile on fuel (at current prices). Anywhere else in the nation, the cost of electricity is higher and therefore the cost per mile on electric-only mode will literally equal the cost per mile on gasoline. That alone means the 4xe will never add up financially.

But then you add in the extra cost, future costs of battery packs (and maybe electric motors when the brushes wear out), etc. and you end up behind. You're spending, not saving.

Then there are the environmental damages you're doing because you're buying a vehicle with a huge battery pack which is the dirtiest activity automakers have ever undertaken, and then when those battery packs get sent to the land fill it's a future nightmare. I have a family member who is the Commissioner of our state Division of Waste Management and he said they're already worried about how they're going to deal with solar panels and battery packs in the future.

There is Z E R O benefit to the 4xe. It's a ploy to make people feel like their favorite politicians are doing something great for them. In a way, it's a form of vote buying.

Having said all that, it's America and I'm a firm believer that everyone should be free to drive what they want!!!!
I think your math is way off on the cost per mile on gas. We average 17mpg in our 2019, at current gas prices pushing $4/gal, that's closer to $0.24/ mile. Of course, if cost per mile driven is your main concern buying a wrangler, you likely have hit your head 1 too many times.
 

Sboden

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2020
Threads
4
Messages
578
Reaction score
483
Location
Kansas City
Vehicle(s)
2021 JLUR 4Xe, 2.5" lift, 17" wheels, 37" tires
Level 2 charger at home paying 10 cents a kWh along with free charging at work equals a no brainer. Even though I started out with electric costs and charging, I bought this vehicle for 375 hp and 470 torque. Would someone please look at the 392 and tell me what its gas mileage is using premium fuel and tell me the 4Xe isn't worth it. Let alone the up front cost of the 392 compared to the 4Xe. If you are driving a lot of daily miles, I'd go with the diesel but know it costs more up front similarly optioned and maintenance is high for it. I'll add I filled up for the first time with a quarter of a tank of gas left and 760 miles since the dealership did the first fill up. This vehicle isn't for everyone and that is the great thing. I hate all the haters putting down any of the motors and such. Wrangler owners have the choice of the 392, 4Xe, 3.6, 2.0 and diesel. How does it get any better than that and each one fits a certain person.....
 
Last edited:

Thill444

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2019
Threads
5
Messages
330
Reaction score
462
Location
New England
Vehicle(s)
21 Rubicon 4xe, 21 Supra 3.0, 21 Pacifica Hybrid
Absolutely not. Where I live, we enjoy the lowest utility rates in the nation. And even still, a 4xe will cost $0.09 per mile to operate on electricity only, and roughly $0.12 per mile on fuel (at current prices). Anywhere else in the nation, the cost of electricity is higher and therefore the cost per mile on electric-only mode will literally equal the cost per mile on gasoline. That alone means the 4xe will never add up financially.

But then you add in the extra cost, future costs of battery packs (and maybe electric motors when the brushes wear out), etc. and you end up behind. You're spending, not saving.

Then there are the environmental damages you're doing because you're buying a vehicle with a huge battery pack which is the dirtiest activity automakers have ever undertaken, and then when those battery packs get sent to the land fill it's a future nightmare. I have a family member who is the Commissioner of our state Division of Waste Management and he said they're already worried about how they're going to deal with solar panels and battery packs in the future.

There is Z E R O benefit to the 4xe. It's a ploy to make people feel like their favorite politicians are doing something great for them. In a way, it's a form of vote buying.

Having said all that, it's America and I'm a firm believer that everyone should be free to drive what they want!!!!
Yeah no. My 2019 JL with 33” tires got 17mpg lifetime (17000 miles). I drive mostly city and 20-30 mile commute. Your math doesn’t add up, gas price is $3.10-3.26 per gallon (87 octane, 93 is 3.80+) near my house. Gas prices are rising and it’s going to go nowhere but up over the next 2-4 years. Some Americans are already paying well over $4 a gallon already.

In terms of the rest of your post they already can recycle 100% of the rare earth elements in an EV battery.

You also don’t seem to have a clue on the warranty on the 4xe batteries. In my state it’s 10 years, 150,000 miles. PHEV also puts less wear abs tear on the ICE.

I did the math and after the $8K tax credit and gas savings over 5 years the Rubicon 4xe is much cheaper than the ICE 4xe.
 

Sponsored

michail

Well-Known Member
First Name
Michael
Joined
Apr 22, 2021
Threads
46
Messages
577
Reaction score
301
Location
Florida
Vehicle(s)
2021 Sahara 4xe
Of course, if cost per mile driven is your main concern buying a wrangler, you likely have hit your head 1 too many times.
LOL, I don't think that's the case with anyone initially, but then that sets in for some reason. I could cut my cost per mile by an order of magnitude. But there are so many other measures. Perhaps some expect laws of thermodynamics to bend some?

Lithium mining, recycling issues, CO2 emissions, source of the electricity generation, etc.

Traditional lead acid battery recycling is a nasty business (but low paid, immigrant workers pay that price, so who cares). Plastics recycling, that's a joke, going on longer than I've been alive. Either political extreme can pick or choose their facts but rarely want to admit to a meta analysis.

I do know lithium ion batteries have issues, but I may be an optimist? I think there are profits to be made.

Do we want to go back to leaded gasoline? Unleaded had so much resistance.
 

Goin2drt

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Threads
48
Messages
2,572
Reaction score
3,198
Location
Kentucky
Vehicle(s)
18 Rubicon, 17 Grand Cherokee Trailhawk
I think folks should buy whatever they want. I just find it funny to try and “justify” the EV purchase on price. The math doesn’t work and it never will for a very long time. Also if you really think you are saving the environment please come out of Al Gore’s tent and actually do some research. The emissions used to actually create and generate the EV vehicle is far more than ICE.

Again buy it because to like it as it is just another choice in the line up but certainly stop telling folks it is “so much cheaper especially with the rebate” than others. Even those people have no clue how the rebate works. It isn’t the government just sending you a $7500 check You can go cash at the bank.
 

Zandcwhite

Well-Known Member
First Name
Zach
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Threads
10
Messages
4,249
Reaction score
7,579
Location
Patterson, ca
Vehicle(s)
2019 jlur
I think folks should buy whatever they want. I just find it funny to try and “justify” the EV purchase on price. The math doesn’t work and it never will for a very long time. Also if you really think you are saving the environment please come out of Al Gore’s tent and actually do some research. The emissions used to actually create and generate the EV vehicle is far more than ICE.

Again buy it because to like it as it is just another choice in the line up but certainly stop telling folks it is “so much cheaper especially with the rebate” than others. Even those people have no clue how the rebate works. It isn’t the government just sending you a $7500 check You can go cash at the bank.
It's me knocking $7,500 off the check I send to the government every spring, which is even better than them sending me a check in my opinion.
 

Raylan Givens

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Threads
1
Messages
135
Reaction score
347
Location
GA
Vehicle(s)
Ram 1500
It amazes me that people are so terrified of electric vehicles and take time out of their day to attempt to bash them on the internet, but I guess the cult like Tesla worshippers are just as bad.

Yes the initial production of an EV causes more pollution than an ICE, but unless your power is coming from an unregulated Chinese power plant you will have less environmental impact over the life of a vehicle.

Yes the mining required to produce the batteries is destructive. So is fracking, oil drilling, etc. You can also recycle the batteries so they can be reused and aren't just piling up in landfills. The technology will continue to improve lessoning this impact.

Is EV cheaper? Does the EV make sense for you? That really depends on your situation. As EV market share expands I would expect electricity to increase in price and gas to level off with lower demand. I don't think EV is necessarily a cost saving measure. However it isn't a simple comparison because the ICE isn't going to compare in terms of performance. Currently the EV can't compete in range and ability to quickly refuel. Your individual situation is going to determine which powertrain provides the most value to you.

Personally I think the mandates to be all ICE by 20XX are extremely optimistic. There is a place for both in the market place, especially until things like infrastructure have been proven to be sufficient.
 

Goin2drt

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Threads
48
Messages
2,572
Reaction score
3,198
Location
Kentucky
Vehicle(s)
18 Rubicon, 17 Grand Cherokee Trailhawk
It amazes me that people are so terrified of electric vehicles and take time out of their day to attempt to bash them on the internet, but I guess the cult like Tesla worshippers are just as bad.

Yes the initial production of an EV causes more pollution than an ICE, but unless your power is coming from an unregulated Chinese power plant you will have less environmental impact over the life of a vehicle.

Yes the mining required to produce the batteries is destructive. So is fracking, oil drilling, etc. You can also recycle the batteries so they can be reused and aren't just piling up in landfills. The technology will continue to improve lessoning this impact.

Is EV cheaper? Does the EV make sense for you? That really depends on your situation. As EV market share expands I would expect electricity to increase in price and gas to level off with lower demand. I don't think EV is necessarily a cost saving measure. However it isn't a simple comparison because the ICE isn't going to compare in terms of performance. Currently the EV can't compete in range and ability to quickly refuel. Your individual situation is going to determine which powertrain provides the most value to you.

Personally I think the mandates to be all ICE by 20XX are extremely optimistic. There is a place for both in the market place, especially until things like infrastructure have been proven to be sufficient.
Yet he takes time out of his day to say the same things we are all saying Even proves the point that EV is NOT cost effective YET!
Sponsored

 
 



Top