Tried (and failed) negotiating on a Rubicon today...thoughts?

[jeepingib]

what’d it end up being? (Compared to invoice)

At the time I only got about 1% under invoice. Better deals could be had just months after I bought it, and I kicked myself. But they were initially asking sticker +

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[hazylogic]

At the time I only got about 1% under invoice. Better deals could be had just months after I bought it, and I kicked myself. But they were initially asking sticker +

still better than anything I’ve seen with these other two dealers.

 

[hazylogic]

Many dealers have started becoming tough with negotiations due to COVID as profits are way down versus a year before. This was also another reason why the dealer was being hard. FCA as a whole is also now operating rather slim. Although B2C sales such as dealerships have stabilized, the B2B sales such as large corporations and fleet agencies are in the toilet. Unfortunately the B2B is what pays the bills...

Sorry for my ignorance...what is B2C and B2B?

 

[Punjabi New Yorker]

Sorry for my ignorance...what is B2C and B2B?

B2C: Business to Consumer (ex: Jeep sells to you via a dealer).

B2B: Business to Business (ex: Jeep sells to another corporation such as Apple or Samsung or Amazon for their sales guys or executives as a company perk or job travel. Or Jeep sells to a rental car company like Enterprise or Avis)

 

[MeekoDiesel]

Backstory to this is I've currently got a 2021 yellow Sahara on order. It's built, and in transit to the dealer. The dealer has been horrible w/ customer service, and I've not been able to actually negotiate a sales price on it. I'm getting annoyed w/ them, and happened to be out of town today, and ran across a 2020 Rubi that's yellow as well from another dealer. Thought I'd stop in, test drive, see what was up.

It's listed as MSRP of 54,495. The website say's they're offering a discount of 1,635 off that. Went on the test drive, and it was good. Didn't have all the features I wanted. I was willing to live with that if they'd give me a good offer, and I'd add/change what I could afterwards. Being a 2020 figured I could get a good deal. I see people on the forums getting anywhere from 1%-8% below invoice.

During the drive he tries to explain all the bs stuff they added as the dealer. Some tracking feature...some type of glass coating that increases strength 80% (he said something about withstanding a bullet...sound like a lot of bs to me)

I have a trade in, they looked at that, and said they'd do $15,000. I was fine with that, as that's what Carvana said they'd let me sell it to them for.

Went to talk price, he came back with some bullshit $500 off the MSRP. I asked him about the website price. He said that was if you "qualified" for certain offers. So he pulls out a sheet....college grad, military, etc, etc. Goes through it and I got the college grad, an another that was $500-1500. Asked him what determines that. He didn't know...went back to talk to the sales manager again.

Came back, said he shouldn't have pulled out that sheet, as that was only when special incentives were offered, and there were none right now, but they'd do the -$1635 from the website. Ticked me off a bit, but wasn't surprised. Car dealerships are so shady.

Anyway, he immediately starts trying to ask me about monthly payment. I tell him that's not a concern, the concern is the number at the top...the price of the Wrangler. I ask if that's all he could do, and he said yes. So, told him we'd think about it over lunch, and if we decided to do it, needed to call the other dealer to tell them we wouldn't be getting the ordered Jeep, just to make sure there were no repercussions. (They didn't even take a deposit, so pretty sure there wouldn't be)

Go to lunch, and I pull up the April 2020 order guide and figure out the invoice price. It's $51,406. I feel at the very most, that's what I should pay. Again, given the deals I've seen here, something below that doesn't seem unreasonable.

Called him back, and explained I had the order guide, found the fleet price, gave it to him, and told him I wanted it 3% below that ($47,807). Figured that's a good starting point. He went in again about their "upgrades" they added, and told him those had no value to me and was a risk they took when they put them on. He had me text the numbers, then he sent a bunch of texts that made me think he was confused about what I was asking, so we went back.

Explained again to him. He went to the manager (stayed back there for a good 5 mins), came back and just said "he's not willing to do that" No counter offer, nothing. Then he said that if we find someone that will do that, let him know so he can let his manager know he needs to be more aggressive on pricing. I explained I've seen all kinds of people online getting great deals like that.

So, thoughts? What'd I miss? Was my ask too aggressive? Keep in mind I'd like to get a similar price off invoice on what I actually ordered, so any tips would be helpful. And again, the other dealer seems like a pile of steaming crap too.

Summary:

$54,495 MSRP
$52,860 was what dealer wanted.
$51,406 was invoice price from April order guide.
$47,807 was what I was willing to pay. Not even a counter offer here.

Backstory to this is I've currently got a 2021 yellow Sahara on order. It's built, and in transit to the dealer. The dealer has been horrible w/ customer service, and I've not been able to actually negotiate a sales price on it. I'm getting annoyed w/ them, and happened to be out of town today, and ran across a 2020 Rubi that's yellow as well from another dealer. Thought I'd stop in, test drive, see what was up.

It's listed as MSRP of 54,495. The website say's they're offering a discount of 1,635 off that. Went on the test drive, and it was good. Didn't have all the features I wanted. I was willing to live with that if they'd give me a good offer, and I'd add/change what I could afterwards. Being a 2020 figured I could get a good deal. I see people on the forums getting anywhere from 1%-8% below invoice.

During the drive he tries to explain all the bs stuff they added as the dealer. Some tracking feature...some type of glass coating that increases strength 80% (he said something about withstanding a bullet...sound like a lot of bs to me)

I have a trade in, they looked at that, and said they'd do $15,000. I was fine with that, as that's what Carvana said they'd let me sell it to them for.

Went to talk price, he came back with some bullshit $500 off the MSRP. I asked him about the website price. He said that was if you "qualified" for certain offers. So he pulls out a sheet....college grad, military, etc, etc. Goes through it and I got the college grad, an another that was $500-1500. Asked him what determines that. He didn't know...went back to talk to the sales manager again.

Came back, said he shouldn't have pulled out that sheet, as that was only when special incentives were offered, and there were none right now, but they'd do the -$1635 from the website. Ticked me off a bit, but wasn't surprised. Car dealerships are so shady.

Anyway, he immediately starts trying to ask me about monthly payment. I tell him that's not a concern, the concern is the number at the top...the price of the Wrangler. I ask if that's all he could do, and he said yes. So, told him we'd think about it over lunch, and if we decided to do it, needed to call the other dealer to tell them we wouldn't be getting the ordered Jeep, just to make sure there were no repercussions. (They didn't even take a deposit, so pretty sure there wouldn't be)

Go to lunch, and I pull up the April 2020 order guide and figure out the invoice price. It's $51,406. I feel at the very most, that's what I should pay. Again, given the deals I've seen here, something below that doesn't seem unreasonable.

Called him back, and explained I had the order guide, found the fleet price, gave it to him, and told him I wanted it 3% below that ($47,807). Figured that's a good starting point. He went in again about their "upgrades" they added, and told him those had no value to me and was a risk they took when they put them on. He had me text the numbers, then he sent a bunch of texts that made me think he was confused about what I was asking, so we went back.

Explained again to him. He went to the manager (stayed back there for a good 5 mins), came back and just said "he's not willing to do that" No counter offer, nothing. Then he said that if we find someone that will do that, let him know so he can let his manager know he needs to be more aggressive on pricing. I explained I've seen all kinds of people online getting great deals like that.

So, thoughts? What'd I miss? Was my ask too aggressive? Keep in mind I'd like to get a similar price off invoice on what I actually ordered, so any tips would be helpful. And again, the other dealer seems like a pile of steaming crap too.

Summary:

$54,495 MSRP
$52,860 was what dealer wanted.
$51,406 was invoice price from April order guide.
$47,807 was what I was willing to pay. Not even a counter offer here.

I started my Jeep shopping with Peterson in Nampa, ID. Many of the forum members have purchased here, great prices. I live all the way in NC but I could get a $300 one way flight to Boise and make the drive back which would have been alot of fun. Some very beautiful country out that way as well.

The MSRP of our loaded out Rubi came out to just shy of $63k. The quote I got from Peterson was $54,840, I was very happy with that. I then took that price in writing and went to a dealer near me and said can you beat this price? They said they could do $55,550. I was not expecting them to get that close to it.

I then took THAT price and went to another dealer in my area and said can you beat $55,500? They said sure we can do $55k. I went back to Peterson and gave them another shot to come down lower on price and they couldn't.

I ended up settling at $55k with John Heister CJDR in Lillington, NC. I worked with Darrin on the build / order process, good dude. I was happy to get a great price from someone local since I figured it would make any issues that came up in the order / delivery / buying process easier to deal with.

If you are willing / able to travel a little bit to get a great price I would reach out to some of the preferred dealers from the forum for quotes. Take their low prices to your local Jeep dealers and see if they can get close, if they can't walk out the door!

 

[Dkretden]

All news reports that I have read do indicate that car prices are ‘high” now and dealers are not negotiating as they did a year ago.

that said, OP, I purchased off the lot a 2020 JLUR from River Oaks Jeep in Houston for about 6% off invoice (roughly 10% off MSRP) last November - 9 months ago.

the advice above about going to an ‘internet/forum dealer” to get ‘good“ pricing may be accurate at this very moment (supply/demand above) but certainly is not true otherwise.

 

[KenPewPew]

With all respect Michael - I am so sorry that you had to go through all that BS. If it was me (and it happened) when some sales person started to bs on me with how special I am - its BYAAAAAH FELICIA! I don't have patience for such thing. Its just down right rude.

However, when I meet a sales person who is direct, down to earth and friendly (yes very rare with car dealership) - then I will give him my price - if he can meet that, he got the business, and if he could not then I regret that I will bring my business elsewhere. But the price that I have in mind is realistic of course after doing much research and comparison. That low balling and then meet in the middle is just not the kind of game that I like to play. I recently just purchased a Rubi from a dealership here and this person has been direct and I know that he gave me the best price.

Just don't bother wasting your time dealing with these kind of people till you find someone that you are comfortable with. And you must be realistic too. And do your homework! Good luck to you!!

 

[zrickety]

In my experience, the dealers that want your business put their best price on Autotrader. That gets you in the door. I qualified for all rebates except military which got me within $1000 of their advertised price. I negotiated that far before I even drove to see it. Got my Rubicon for $38k plus tax and couldn't be happier.

 

[shelglass]

Please don't start. I really think the dealers deserve to make a little money right? People think they can get % below invoice. Supply and demand. Hot vehicle means more $$$$. Just a fact.

 

[oldcjguy]

Here's my opinion when working with a local dealership. You need to give them room to negotiate. If they want to play the payment game then figure out what you're willing to pay for the vehicle you want, then figure out a fair price for your trade and calculate what your payment would be with current interest rates. Make sure it's a fair price and not the best deal you've heard on the internet. There's a lot of factors that go into those "huge deals" like unpopular optioned vehicles, stripped models (even a rubicon and sahara high altitude have options), too much inventory, they need to hit sales numbers, etc... The price should be fair and what you're willing to pay to have that vehicle be yours. They are a business and deserve to make money too. And don't forget about tax! It's not their fault they have to charge tax. Also, remember you don't pay tax on the amount you get for your trade in.

I actually like it when they want to negotiate around payment. That gives me the out the door price and no "fees and other charges on top of the vehicle cost" because all of that needs to be included into the loan for the payment. I tell them that I don't care in the end they report I'm paying for the jeep or how much I get for my trade, I want this payment number. If he says he can't go any lower on the vehicle, I say that's fine, then give me more for my trade. If he says my trade isn't worth $xxxx, then I say that's fine, give me a bigger discount on the vehicle. Or get me a lower interest rate so I end up where "I need to be". In the end I don't care how they report the sale on their accounting sheets. I want to end up paying what I think is fair for my trade and their new vehicle.

If you've already been back and forth with them and you're happy with the vehicle they have there, go back with your car all ready to sign and leave with a new vehicle. Show up and tell them, "look I worked it out and I can do a payment of xxx dollars per month and no more." Tell them you brought all the keys and you're ready to do the deal right now. They'll come back with a middle ground offer. Say no. Tell them 2021s are hitting the lots and you're already settling for a year old model that doesn't have all the features you were looking for AND you may have to remove some of the add-ons they performed if you chose to do your own (like tint the windows darker or lighter than they did). Tell them that if you're going to pay more you'll just order a 21 from a dealer closer to you and get "exactly what you want" in a newer model year. That puts a little more pressure on them. This usually works better at the end of the month when they are trying to hit their numbers and make commission, but it still works in general.

Be prepared for them to say what about a longer loan like, 60 months instead of 48, to get to your payment number. Tell them that means you're paying a lot more and it's not worth it to you. Or tell them you'd never consider a loan longer than X months (whatever the loan term you're happy with is). Make them work. The longer you sit there wit them the more likely they are going to be to work the deal. They don't want to spend that much time to watch you walk away. Be prepared to walk away though.

 

[Dkretden]

Please don't start. I really think the dealers deserve to make a little money right? People think they can get % below invoice. Supply and demand. Hot vehicle means more $$$$. Just a fact.

”please don’t start”

what does that mean?

”don’t start talking about pricing in the “pricing forum”?

dealers make all kinds of money via all kinds of levers and routinely give 10% off MSRP/5% off invoice. Both numbers are made up, fictitious, and Do not represent what a dealer pays. They are marketing fabrications. I have zero problem finding a dealer that will start below invoice And negotiating from there. If they don’t want to, I find another dealer.

I work hard for my money and the last time I checked dealers aren’t charities and rarely go out of business. I see no reason why I should given them any more of my money than I have to. You certainly can, if you wish. Your choice.

 

[entropy]

Youre doing it all wrong. You negotiate first, you dont even tell them you have a trade in. You see your trade in and new car separately, the dealer doesnt. Sure theyll give you same as carvana but then theyll get more money from the new jeep.

Also you dont order then negotiate.. you are wasting your time and getting frustrated. You call all the dealers you can and ask for the best price, if they dont give you a best offer dont waste your time. You are not gonna sit down with them and twist their arm, thats b.s. it is their job. dont beg for what you want to pay, they just wont and will let you walk away.

imo, sell your trade in independently or to carvana. more power to you. Trade ins at dealers will almost never work out to your favor. Go there with cash, or with your own financing. Chances are they will match your financing. And if you do go with cash, dont tell them you are paying cash. Get their financing, with huge interest rates and then just pay off the loan as soon as you can.

Thats what I did. When I took their massive 7% interest rate loan their eyes shined. Gave me a massive discount on my Jeep. Then I just went home and paid off the loan.

 

[Artdnj]

Youre doing it all wrong. You negotiate first, you dont even tell them you have a trade in. You see your trade in and new car separately, the dealer doesnt. Sure theyll give you same as carvana but then theyll get more money from the new jeep.

Also you dont order then negotiate.. you are wasting your time and getting frustrated. You call all the dealers you can and ask for the best price, if they dont give you a best offer dont waste your time. You are not gonna sit down with them and twist their arm, thats b.s. it is their job. dont beg for what you want to pay, they just wont and will let you walk away.

imo, sell your trade in independently or to carvana. more power to you. Trade ins at dealers will almost never work out to your favor. Go there with cash, or with your own financing. Chances are they will match your financing. And if you do go with cash, dont tell them you are paying cash. Get their financing, with huge interest rates and then just pay off the loan as soon as you can.

Thats what I did. When I took their massive 7% interest rate loan their eyes shined. Gave me a massive discount on my Jeep. Then I just went home and paid off the loan.

You didn’t have to wait a time period to pay it off? Very sound advice...I assume you must get no prepayment penalty in terms of loan to go that route.

 

[entropy]

Q

You didn’t have to wait a time period to pay it off? Very sound advice...I assume you must get no prepayment penalty in terms of loan to go that route.

I always check that they don't have "pre-payment" penalty. I always ask, and in the LA area I've never seen the case where I can just pay off my loan. I did this with the last 3 vehicles I bought in the past 3 years.

 

[RubiSc0tt]

Ordering a vehicle without an agreed price is a big no-no. You don’t have any leverage there.. If you want to play ball with a local dealer than bring real quotes from another dealer of other Jeeps you could buy, that’s the best way to get them to bite potentially. Otherwise the back and forth game with the sales manager almost never works out in your favor.

Yep.

. Guess I'll be waiting another 3 months for a wrangler :-D

Worth it.

I've posted the long version of my rant/ experience a few times.
Long story short:
I did ALL of my negotiation via email. I was ruthless, but respectful and professional. I refused to meet until a ball park price was in place, for both my Jeep, and a trade in. I probably could have held back on the trade in, but I didn't want to waste time. I was probably 2 weeks away from putting down the deposit for my Jeep through Koons and arranging transport, when my brother told me to go see his guy at a local dealer. Same deal, we emailed and things were satisfactory so I met with him. He was respectful of my time, needs, and budget, and worked to get me what I wanted within my price range. I showed him the quote from Koons and a few other dealers I had spoken with, and from that he was able to work up a price, and figure out the Jeep group buy program, so he knew I wasn't making things up. He found 2 he could locate that met my criteria (Red, and a Green). Then double checked a week later and found out ordering had opened again and Punk'n orders were being processed. I felt everything was good so we did the deal, he had to get it OK'd by the GM because it was a factory order for that program, but everything went without a hitch. I ended up saving money and time by not having to travel long distance for my Jeep, and I was able to support a local dealer. My Jeep came with leather (despite me not ordering it) and he offered to get me another one without or have the interior replaced, but when I mentioned I needed the Jeep for the oncoming winter, he knew it was their error and wrote it off for me to avoid any hassles and also get the deal done. If he's still working at that dealer I will likely do the same thing on my next vehicle, possibly my wife's vehicle when the time comes. Most of the other Jeep dealers in my area are either @$$holes or it's a complete and total goat rodeo- trying to sell you "the experience" for a premium, despite me rolling in with an 04 Rubi that looked like it had been through a war. This ain't my first rodeo, and I know what I'm doing and where I'm going. Save the marketing for someone who will believe it.... haha

Some sales people need to see a hard copy to connect the dots. As long as They're respectful of your time and will work with you to get the deal done, I'll pay a little extra. Some are just dicks. I prefer to support the former, in hopes that they will thrive and the industry will be better as a whole.

Youre doing it all wrong. You negotiate first, you dont even tell them you have a trade in. You see your trade in and new car separately, the dealer doesnt. Sure theyll give you same as carvana but then theyll get more money from the new jeep.

Also you dont order then negotiate.. you are wasting your time and getting frustrated. You call all the dealers you can and ask for the best price, if they dont give you a best offer dont waste your time. You are not gonna sit down with them and twist their arm, thats b.s. it is their job. dont beg for what you want to pay, they just wont and will let you walk away.

imo, sell your trade in independently or to carvana. more power to you. Trade ins at dealers will almost never work out to your favor. Go there with cash, or with your own financing. Chances are they will match your financing. And if you do go with cash, dont tell them you are paying cash. Get their financing, with huge interest rates and then just pay off the loan as soon as you can.

Thats what I did. When I took their massive 7% interest rate loan their eyes shined. Gave me a massive discount on my Jeep. Then I just went home and paid off the loan.

Holy smokes. This guy... This is the way. I may actually try this to get a better deal on the next one. Brilliant.

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