ESS start/stop not working properly!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jeepoch]

I hope these points help you make a well informed decision, but if you have any questions please let us know!

Genesis Offroad Rep,

Thank you so much for reading my post and returning your thoughts.

I like ESS for what it's trying to accomplish not so much for it's dissimilar battery implementation. However it does give an added dimension to driving. Being a software engineer, especially working as a powertrain controller developer earlier in my career, I'm willing to give new technology a try. I can certainly live with or without ESS but it doesn't drive me completely insane like it does some. I'm adaptive, open-minded and willing to give my old FCA colleagues a little latitude in working out the kinks. Granted most people want or expect perfection on such an expensive product, but the intent behind ESS is worth giving it a try.

I really do appreciate your disappointment with my post. No one likes to hear negative comments about a product that you work so very hard to develop and market. I really do admire the engineering that went into the overall vision and packaging of the Genesis Dual Battery Kit. It's far superior than the manufacturer's approach.

But why a limit of six ESS cycles per ignition event? Is there some subtle interaction with the Intelligent Battery System monitoring? Is there a way to reset or increase this count? Since this is some quantized behavior (always a count of six), I'm suspecting some type of digital logic rather than a more randomized analog (such as accumulated or built up capacitance) condition. Is there some sort of CAN Bus authentication with some calibrated max casual usage threshold? Or perhaps a missing AUX battery input?

Clearly based on your feedback asking me to manually recycling the ignition your team either doesn't understand or can't address a corrective fix. Maybe the solution is just too cost prohibitive (like needing to become a trusted FCA partner) in order to gain authorized security access to the vehicle's controller communication firewall.

Of course this is all pure speculation on my part. If the current Dual Battery Kit can't integrate with ESS, is there a less sophisticated kit to simply bring the Aux Battery up (from being hidden) with the possibility of replacing it with a larger unit? I don't know battery technology as well as you do, and I appreciate how non-trivial battery charging really is. However, can Genesis provide a kit with a slightly different overall goal? Rather than a 'be all, do all' replacement to one of simply replacing the current FCA implementation with a more convenient mechanical kit that makes both batteries more easily accessible?

How can we JL owners who don't add the high power accessories which require the genius of a complete battery system overhaul, to one that simply makes the Aux Battery more accessible? A Dual Battery Lite kit. One without all the complicated isolation. Just a mechanical widgit without much technology. Or even something to better monitor and independently charge just the Aux battery explicitly.

Jay

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[Jebiruph]

Genesis Offroad Rep,

Thank you so much for reading my post and returning your thoughts.

I like ESS for what it's trying to accomplish not so much for it's dissimilar battery implementation. However it does give an added dimension to driving. Being a software engineer, especially working as a powertrain controller developer earlier in my career, I'm willing to give new technology a try. I can certainly live with or without ESS but it doesn't drive me completely insane like it does some. I'm adaptive, open-minded and willing to give my old FCA colleagues a little latitude in working out the kinks. Granted most people want or expect perfection on such an expensive product, but the intent behind ESS is worth giving it a try.

I really do appreciate your disappointment with my post. No one likes to hear negative comments about a product that you work so very hard to develop and market. I really do admire the engineering that went into the overall vision and packaging of the Genesis Dual Battery Kit. It's far superior than the manufacturer's approach.

But why a limit of six ESS cycles per ignition event? Is there some subtle interaction with the Intelligent Battery System monitoring? Is there a way to reset or increase this count? Since this is some quantized behavior (always a count of six), I'm suspecting some type of digital logic rather than a more randomized analog (such as accumulated or built up capacitance) condition. Is there some sort of CAN Bus authentication with some calibrated max casual usage threshold? Or perhaps a missing AUX battery input?

Clearly based on your feedback asking me to manually recycling the ignition your team either doesn't understand or can't address a corrective fix. Maybe the solution is just too cost prohibitive (like needing to become a trusted FCA partner) in order to gain authorized security access to the vehicle's controller communication firewall.

Of course this is all pure speculation on my part. If the current Dual Battery Kit can't integrate with ESS, is there a less sophisticated kit to simply bring the Aux Battery up (from being hidden) with the possibility of replacing it with a larger unit? I don't know battery technology as well as you do, and I appreciate how non-trivial battery charging really is. However, can Genesis provide a kit with a slightly different overall goal? Rather than a 'be all, do all' replacement to one of simply replacing the current FCA implementation with a more convenient mechanical kit that makes both batteries more easily accessible?

How can we JL owners who don't add the high power accessories which require the genius of a complete battery system overhaul, to one that simply makes the Aux Battery more accessible? A Dual Battery Lite kit. One without all the complicated isolation. Just a mechanical widgit without much technology. Or even something to better monitor and independently charge just the Aux battery explicitly.

Jay

Per a previous Genesis Offroad post somewhere, the six ESS cycle limit is programmed in by FCA. The logic is that typically both batteries will not have the same exact voltage and if identical voltage is detected between the aux battery and the main battery for six ESS cycles, there is possibly a system problem and ESS is disabled.

You can buy just the Genesis dual battery tray and wire the two batteries identical to the factory ESS system, but you will most likely need to replace some of the cables with different length cables.

 

[jeepoch]

Jerry,

Thank you so much for the rational behind the six cycle limit. I suspected it was a software feature. Clever of FCA to come up with a tamper resistant strategy to prevent the bypass or removal of the Aux battery.

The primary issue then with the Genesis Dual Battery system and ESS is that the Genesis system is more focused on providing reliable power vs emulating the Aux battery. It's a little frustrating you can't somehow get the best of both approaches.

I take it that the Genesis system does not momentarily disconnect one of the batteries right before the starter (via the starter control relay) in order to independently measure the individual battery voltages. I then wonder why the Genesis system could not just simply leave either one of the batteries disconnected (isolated) between each other whenever there is no charging energy present (i.e. the engine is off), and connect both batteries according to their current charging and delivery paradigm after a small delay when detecting (alternator) energy. Then simply toggle between which battery is isolated during each ignition crank event. In that way the Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) would be able to detect the individual battery voltages thus keeping the ESS system happy.

Of course if one battery is drained (low enough voltage) to the point it can't supply enough current to engage either the Starter Control Relay or the Starter itself, it either isolates that particular battery altogether or simply lets the toggle occur the next ignition start attempt. The down side is the driver has to try to start twice. The up side is that this is a natural and intuitive thing to do if the engine doesn't start.

Unfortunately, Genesis is likely trying to keep their product totally generic and starting system agnostic in order to be used in the highest number of vehicle makes and models. Hopefully however, this may be an idea that can be thought over and considered.

I may be missing something subtle such as the triggering signal used to flip-flop which battery gets explicitly isolated prior to the detection of the charging energy (the alternator). Maybe it's as simple as always isolating the weaker battery every time the charging energy is removed with the assumption that the stronger battery is first used to always crank.

Maybe Genesis is doing everything via analog control and this sophistication is beyond what they're willing to consider. Still, a small delay to reconnect both batteries upon detection of charging energy seems like an easy problem to solve. Obviously however, this all has to be done such that both battery voltages can be detected independent on which battery is isolated.

ESS requires that two independent (disconnected) batteries be sensed for a small period of time. There has to be some way to provide that. Maybe even a simple low-current voltage divider (cheater) connected into the Intelligent Battery Sensor circuit to always provide a difference in measured voltages.

I'm just musing. Take this diatribe with a grain of salt. Still, thanks again for the information.

Jay

 

[Jebiruph]

Jerry,

Thank you so much for the rational behind the six cycle limit. I suspected it was a software feature. Clever of FCA to come up with a tamper resistant strategy to prevent the bypass or removal of the Aux battery.

The primary issue then with the Genesis Dual Battery system and ESS is that the Genesis system is more focused on providing reliable power vs emulating the Aux battery. It's a little frustrating you can't somehow get the best of both approaches.

I take it that the Genesis system does not momentarily disconnect one of the batteries right before the starter (via the starter control relay) in order to independently measure the individual battery voltages. I then wonder why the Genesis system could not just simply leave either one of the batteries disconnected (isolated) between each other whenever there is no charging energy present (i.e. the engine is off), and connect both batteries according to their current charging and delivery paradigm after a small delay when detecting (alternator) energy. Then simply toggle between which battery is isolated during each ignition crank event. In that way the Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) would be able to detect the individual battery voltages thus keeping the ESS system happy.

Of course if one battery is drained (low enough voltage) to the point it can't supply enough current to engage either the Starter Control Relay or the Starter itself, it either isolates that particular battery altogether or simply lets the toggle occur the next ignition start attempt. The down side is the driver has to try to start twice. The up side is that this is a natural and intuitive thing to do if the engine doesn't start.

Unfortunately, Genesis is likely trying to keep their product totally generic and starting system agnostic in order to be used in the highest number of vehicle makes and models. Hopefully however, this may be an idea that can be thought over and considered.

I may be missing something subtle such as the triggering signal used to flip-flop which battery gets explicitly isolated prior to the detection of the charging energy (the alternator). Maybe it's as simple as always isolating the weaker battery every time the charging energy is removed with the assumption that the stronger battery is first used to always crank.

Maybe Genesis is doing everything via analog control and this sophistication is beyond what they're willing to consider. Still, a small delay to reconnect both batteries upon detection of charging energy seems like an easy problem to solve. Obviously however, this all has to be done such that both battery voltages can be detected independent on which battery is isolated.

ESS requires that two independent (disconnected) batteries be sensed for a small period of time. There has to be some way to provide that. Maybe even a simple low-current voltage divider (cheater) connected into the Intelligent Battery Sensor circuit to always provide a difference in measured voltages.

I'm just musing. Take this diatribe with a grain of salt. Still, thanks again for the information.

Jay

I don't think FCA is trying to tamper proof ESS. They are probably concerned that a system failure could occur that would prevent the isolation of the aux and main battery during an ESS event and so are disabling the system.

You can buy the Genesis dual battery tray without any of their wiring or electronics and run both the main and aux batteries in the tray wired to match the factory wiring.

 

[DanFelix]

I read all the msgs in this thread and I have a question about battery charging.
1. Is there a difference between charging with a trickle charge or charging by driving?
2. Is the battery voltage given on the instrument panel an average of both batteries or is it just the main battery?
3. Is there a way to trickle charge each battery independently, but not at the same time?
4. Is there a way to measure the voltage of each battery independently?

I replaced both batteries in April 2020 to solve the ESS battery charging issue. The original batteries were in the Jeep since July '18. That ESS message resurfaced two days ago. I have twice trickle charged the batteries to the 100% read-out but it does not end the message. Others in this thread have solved the message by driving. My instinct says that the battery(s) are indifferent to the source of a charge, but that may be wrong.

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[JW12]

Have you changed your tire size? Use a tazer? I have these exact issues, and if the above are true, you need to perform the top gear relearn procedure. Theres information in the tazer thread, but also you can just Google it. For me, seconds after I put it in 5th gear, I get the error, and backup cam no longer works. Programming for correct tire size, and doing the relearn procedure solve it. (Until I remove my tazer, and the issue returns)

Thought I'd follow up on this for others with the same issue. I have confirmed that the Service ESS issue occurs when I shift into 5th gear just like you said. I did try using the button on the dash to turn off the ESS, but the issue still occurred. I have yet to find a good solution and have not tried to disable it yet. Hate to spend the money to disable and it not work, so I think I will wait to see if someone tries it. The issue goes away once the vehicle is turned off and restarted. It also doesn't seem to be hurting anything beyond the annoyance, so I'm going to leave it be for now.

 

[AwCrimety]

Post number 22 has instructions on the top gear relearn procedure. It should solve your problem,...for free

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/ess-broken-after-regearing.11852/page-2

 

[richwme90]

I disconnected the ground wires for both batteries, then made sure to use 6th gear on the way home and my issue is fixed now. No more ESS light, also my backup camera and reverse lights work again.

 

[Suv28]

It doesn't always stop the engine. There are alot of things that turn it off, for instance if you have your AC set to "Max" it'll never shut off the engine. If your wheels are turned it won't shut off. If you step on the brake too lightly it wont shut off. If your battery is hot, or cold, it wont shut off.

What if you are stopped at stop signed? How often is the vehicle supposed to stop?

 

[JimLee]

What if you are stopped at stop signed? How often is the vehicle supposed to stop?

If you are stopped at a stop sign theoretically the engine should shut off, but only if all the conditions the system wants are met. There are alot of conditions that will cause it to not shut off like the ones in my post.

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