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Update: 2018-2019 JL Wrangler Timeline Schedule (2DR JL & 2.0L Delay, Powertop & Diesel Dates, Etc)

YFD_322

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There is no way they're doing a power top just for overseas
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The Great Grape Ape

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2.2 diesel does not have SCR and certainly it does not SCR system which is good enough for RDE. Euro 6d is coming on 9/2018 and 9/2019. So... It is a different compared to Cherokee engine or it will be a short living engine.
The 2.2L MJ2 doesn't need an SCR/DEF exhaust additive to reduce NOx, it uses a NOx storage converter in the close coupled DPF system, and it is Euro6 compliant in the Stelvio and Cherokee.
Even if they wanted to exceed the standard for future implementations they can go the LP-EGR route like the other commercial MJ2s in the Ducato for a very small tweak, again without having to resort to DEF.

Also, it doesn't matter if it's short lived or not, if it were deemed non-compliant it would already have to cease production in the Stelvio and Cherokee early if it can't use a bolt-on solution like LP-EGR, so spreading out R&D production costs over the Wrangler implementation for more units makes sense until the nextrefresh/replace arrives.

However, since all the reviews say it's already Euro6 compliant, it's not an issue and it makes more sense than trying to scrounge US engines precisely when there will be a demand shock by adding the Wrangler implementation.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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To me, I would think it odd to be building JKs with 3.6L Non-ESS engines along side JLs with 3.6L ESS engines. But, I suppose they may do exactly that. So no, there won't be significant changes to JK. Packaging changes only.
I would be surprised if they put the ESS model in the JK. There is no need, they simply wind down JK units and then stockpile engines for warranty and service comitments, and then treat it like shutting down the old Compass, Dart or 200 for other production.

Remember if they did want to put the ESS variant in the JK, then it would need all the ancillary systems to support all of the features (EGR,,etc), not just ESS which itself needs the improved starter, alternator and battery at the very least.
Investing that kind of money and resources on a choice whose production run is just 7 months doesn't make sense, it wouod be a nice send-off option package towards making the best JK ever which maybe they could recoup some of the monies from a super expensive Recon+ edition, but also equally super unlikely.
 

kidney

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The 2.2L MJ2 doesn't need an SCR/DEF exhaust additive to reduce NOx, it uses a NOx storage converter in the close coupled DPF system, and it is Euro6 compliant in the Stelvio and Cherokee.
Even if they wanted to exceed the standard for future implementations they can go the LP-EGR route like the other commercial MJ2s in the Ducato for a very small tweak, again without having to resort to DEF.

Also, it doesn't matter if it's short lived or not, if it were deemed non-compliant it would already have to cease production in the Stelvio and Cherokee early if it can't use a bolt-on solution like LP-EGR, so spreading out R&D production costs over the Wrangler implementation for more units makes sense until the nextrefresh/replace arrives.

However, since all the reviews say it's already Euro6 compliant, it's not an issue and it makes more sense than trying to scrounge US engines precisely when there will be a demand shock by adding the Wrangler implementation.
It's a Euro 6b compliant. Euro 6d is different because it adds RDE test. 400-500 kg of test equipment connected direct to tailpipe during on road driving. It's most severe test compared to anything else. For example Faurecia is offering all new SCR system for Euro 6d which will first be used on 1.5 HDI engine from PSA.

They are phasing out engines without SCR in Ducato.

EU Giulia for MY2018 should add SCR in all aluminium 2.2 diesel. Power bumps should be 150->160 HP and 180->190 HP. I don't know if 210 HP version will got SCR for MY2018.

Cherokee is using different engine with cast iron block. That should be a base for Wrangler.

And for example if Wrangler Cherokee starts production in April od 2018 then it would hit EU dealers around June of 2018. If it's not Euro 6d compliant than it will be in production till summer of 2019. IMO, it does not make much sense. Also they have short window to sell all those non-compliant vehicles.
 

YFD_322

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Am I reading this correctly.....if I want a JL 2door Rubicon with hard and soft top then delivery is April/May?
I think it could be even a little later. I've had 2 JKU and I wanted a 2 door now, since it'll only be a short commuter, on the JL. But I thought I would have it way sooner than this now. I'm going to reserve my decision after the reveal at the LA Auto Show because for sure they're going to be promoting the power top and I think after seeing it it will make my decision easier.....i hope!
 

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four low

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There's a LOT of new systems showing up in the JL, all for the sake of boosting "City Mpg".

For those of us in the wide Open Spaces, and rural areas, it's unnecessary, and adds cost, reliability issues for supposed gains we won't see. Turning it off isn't the issue, the expenses associated with reliability and complexity are a big issue.
At this rate, waiting for the all- electric Wrangler makes sense. Leapfrog this messy fussy interim where internal combustion is reaching its "end of life".

Volvo ; all electric , starting 2019. Major European cities banning diesels ; the ever-increasing complexity of trying to make gasoline engines emissions -compliant is signaling the end of an Era.

Cramming an off road vehicle into Honda Civic fuel economy is absurd, and can best be addressed by All Electric.

I'm thinking my current JK 2dr, manual trans, only options hardtop, A/C, 3:73 gearing, is going to be the "good old days" model of simplicity. The TJ held this spot, but the JKs structural improvements, safety, and handling take the lead.

While I like the big structural , safety improvement of the JL, this rush to (false) fuel economy is creating a technical, sensor-dependant Nightmare.

IF all componets were Military Grade, we'd have a chance. BUT, the Reality is, "Made in China, by the Lowest Bidder."

"For want of a nail, the shoe is lost..."
 

BillyHW

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There's a LOT of new systems showing up in the JL, all for the sake of boosting "City Mpg".

For those of us in the wide Open Spaces, and rural areas, it's unnecessary, and adds cost, reliability issues for supposed gains we won't see. Turning it off isn't the issue, the expenses associated with reliability and complexity are a big issue.
At this rate, waiting for the all- electric Wrangler makes sense. Leapfrog this messy fussy interim where internal combustion is reaching its "end of life".

Volvo ; all electric , starting 2019. Major European cities banning diesels ; the ever-increasing complexity of trying to make gasoline engines emissions -compliant is signaling the end of an Era.

Cramming an off road vehicle into Honda Civic fuel economy is absurd, and can best be addressed by All Electric.

I'm thinking my current JK 2dr, manual trans, only options hardtop, A/C, 3:73 gearing, is going to be the "good old days" model of simplicity. The TJ held this spot, but the JKs structural improvements, safety, and handling take the lead.

While I like the big structural , safety improvement of the JL, this rush to (false) fuel economy is creating a technical, sensor-dependant Nightmare.

IF all componets were Military Grade, we'd have a chance. BUT, the Reality is, "Made in China, by the Lowest Bidder."

"For want of a nail, the shoe is lost..."
:facepalm:
 

robplumm

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There's a LOT of new systems showing up in the JL, all for the sake of boosting "City Mpg".

For those of us in the wide Open Spaces, and rural areas, it's unnecessary, and adds cost, reliability issues for supposed gains we won't see. Turning it off isn't the issue, the expenses associated with reliability and complexity are a big issue.
At this rate, waiting for the all- electric Wrangler makes sense. Leapfrog this messy fussy interim where internal combustion is reaching its "end of life".

Volvo ; all electric , starting 2019. Major European cities banning diesels ; the ever-increasing complexity of trying to make gasoline engines emissions -compliant is signaling the end of an Era.

Cramming an off road vehicle into Honda Civic fuel economy is absurd, and can best be addressed by All Electric.

I'm thinking my current JK 2dr, manual trans, only options hardtop, A/C, 3:73 gearing, is going to be the "good old days" model of simplicity. The TJ held this spot, but the JKs structural improvements, safety, and handling take the lead.

While I like the big structural , safety improvement of the JL, this rush to (false) fuel economy is creating a technical, sensor-dependant Nightmare.

IF all componets were Military Grade, we'd have a chance. BUT, the Reality is, "Made in China, by the Lowest Bidder."

"For want of a nail, the shoe is lost..."
Ever in the military? Because if you were...I have a hard time believing you'd make that statement ;)
 

digitalbliss

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There's a LOT of new systems showing up in the JL, all for the sake of boosting "City Mpg".

For those of us in the wide Open Spaces, and rural areas, it's unnecessary, and adds cost, reliability issues for supposed gains we won't see. Turning it off isn't the issue, the expenses associated with reliability and complexity are a big issue.
At this rate, waiting for the all- electric Wrangler makes sense. Leapfrog this messy fussy interim where internal combustion is reaching its "end of life".

Volvo ; all electric , starting 2019. Major European cities banning diesels ; the ever-increasing complexity of trying to make gasoline engines emissions -compliant is signaling the end of an Era.

Cramming an off road vehicle into Honda Civic fuel economy is absurd, and can best be addressed by All Electric.

I'm thinking my current JK 2dr, manual trans, only options hardtop, A/C, 3:73 gearing, is going to be the "good old days" model of simplicity. The TJ held this spot, but the JKs structural improvements, safety, and handling take the lead.

While I like the big structural , safety improvement of the JL, this rush to (false) fuel economy is creating a technical, sensor-dependant Nightmare.

IF all componets were Military Grade, we'd have a chance. BUT, the Reality is, "Made in China, by the Lowest Bidder."

"For want of a nail, the shoe is lost..."
I dont know, people made the same statements against fuel injection vs carbs. "the added complexity" argument, while understandable, is usually just paranoia.
 

kidney

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Volvo ; all electric , starting 2019.
That's a lie but it seems that their marketing is working. Volvo full start of electrification (even mild hybrids are included) in 2019. Not much different to FCA plan for Maserati.
 

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The Great Grape Ape

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It's a Euro 6b compliant. Euro 6d is different because it adds RDE test.
Euro 6D will only implement the 6dTEMP standards before 2021, and they still aren't implementing Temp in their primary Euro Wrangler markets until fall of the 2.2's next year at the earliest, and right now the 2.2 is basically 1/4 and 1/2 of the required 6dt / 6d levels, so even if it tripled under RDE they'd have 3 years to add a solution like LP-EGR to lower it further.

As such, with Europe finally breaking up with diesel, the export 2.2 can still go to outlier markets who barely have 2010 emissions standards, like Australia, NZ, South Africa, M.E., and the Philippines, so it can live/thrive there just like the CRD did before it.

Most importantly, as I mentioned before, the 2.2 is already certified and in market, so easy entry requiring little to no effort for their secondary export markets that still combined only represents 10% of sales with an existing diesel option in the JK.

Demand for the new 3.0L in N.Am. will likely exceed their production capacity initially, so they would want every available 3.0L in the N.Am. market where it matters most and where the most pent-up demand is, so again 2.2L for export.

IMO, it does not make much sense.
You should contact FCA about that. :idea:
 

kidney

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@The Great Grape Ape

Check this:
http://www.aecc.eu/wp-content/uploa...-ECMA-conference-Euro-6-VI-legislations-1.pdf

On page number 5 are Euro 6 implementation dates. Euro 6c is "attack" on GDI engines.

Our argue here is Euro 6d TEMP and Euro 6d which is more related to diesels. For both they will need SCR. Or they will cheat like VW did in US?

EURO 6D-TEMP
  • RDE (NOx CF step 1, PN TBC)
  • Apply for M1 & N1 Class I from 1 September 2017 (New Types) and 1 September 2019 for all vehicles.
  • Apply to N1 Classes II & III and N2 from 1 September 2018 (New Types) and 1 September 2020 (all new vehicles)

AFAIK Wrangler is in M1 category. So I admit that I was wrong. It's a new type of M1 after September 2017. So Euro 6b could not be applied to Wrangler. From the start diesel engines in Europe should be Euro 6d.


This kind of car in Europe is attractive only with diesel.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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Our argue here is Euro 6d TEMP and Euro 6d which is more related to diesels. For both they will need SCR. Or they will cheat like VW did in US?
Sure, why not? If it's good enough for the Germans towards Americans, why not Americans doing it to Germans?

Also, you have a false assumption that it alreasy hasn't passed, which is simply defeatism on your part.

Current NOX levels on the Cherokee are way below the requirements using lab methods, so even if they more than tripled in RDE testing scenario (despite the 2x expectation giving a 2.1 factor), they'd be fine, and FCA would already know this, and test it. Which again is the point, they already have an engine in situ no need for another.

DEF is not a requirement, it's a method, and if they can do it already with just storage, adding LP-EGR is simple and better than dealing with DEF, so it's unlikely they will push for SCR if they can avoid it.

However, and more importantly Europe gets what they get, that market isn't worth the limited next gen 3.0 production, nor making efforts on another engine just for that market.
Considering how small the Euro market is and the cost of shipping vehicles there, any added barriers aren't worth it for a small % of production so the diesel can go to the other export markets.

This kind of car in Europe is attractive only with diesel.
Again, perhaps you should contact FCA, obviously they don't understand your concerns and haven't taken any of this into consideration.
 

Aaron

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Do none of the insider folks on here have any idea if the power soft top will still be offered early in production, with May date referring only to the power hard top? This waiting is killing me.
 

kidney

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Sure, why not? If it's good enough for the Germans towards Americans, why not Americans doing it to Germans?
Uh, that would be nice if Germans want to buy a Jeep but usually they do not have such a habits.

Also, you have a false assumption that it alreasy hasn't passed, which is simply defeatism on your part.
As I said. Current versions of 2.2 diesel, both cast iron and aluminium block, are Euro 6b compliant. They could and they achieved it with low and high pressure EGR loops and NSC.

Current NOX levels on the Cherokee are way below the requirements using lab methods, so even if they more than tripled in RDE testing scenario (despite the 2x expectation giving a 2.1 factor), they'd be fine, and FCA would already know this, and test it. Which again is the point, they already have an engine in situ no need for another.
Look at RDE performance of 2.2 diesels from Fiat. They are one of the worst and nowhere near Euro 6d compliance.

DEF is not a requirement, it's a method, and if they can do it already with just storage, adding LP-EGR is simple and better than dealing with DEF, so it's unlikely they will push for SCR if they can avoid it.
Send your CV to FCA. And explain them how they know nothing and how is waste of time and money to develop Euro 6d engines with SCR.

Then also send it to PSA and Faurecia because they will use double urea injection on Euro 6d engines.

And finally send it to BMW because they will even switch to SCR + NSC combination in the future.

What a morons in car companies. What a waste of resources.
Basically that's what you said.

However, and more importantly Europe gets what they get, that market isn't worth the limited next gen 3.0 production, nor making efforts on another engine just for that market.
Considering how small the Euro market is and the cost of shipping vehicles there, any added barriers aren't worth it for a small % of production so the diesel can go to the other export markets.
Yes, EU market could be small but Jeep here is selling at premium.

JT will be attractive here. But nobody cares about towing ratings, it's all about payload here.
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